Correct form of Iron Age British names

[Rumo]

He said "I don't think there is any consensus, just possibilities. Most of what we think of as Brythonic is primitive welsh back projected and most contemporary evidence is, as you point out, from romanised inscriptions"...

Now, while this may be true in some instances, it is not at all true in others. As I have already mentioned, there were many important Celtic inscriptions (and I mean fully Celtic and not "Romanized") discovered in the 19th and 20th centuries that vastly improved our knowledge of ancient Celtic dialects, so that we now speak with a degree certainty about many words. Additionally, Tacitus' ancient claim that the language of the Britons and the Gauls differed but little from one another seems to be supported by the onomastic evidence, not to mention the potentially Brittonic inscriptions published by RSO Tomlin.

And I believe he's correct in his general assessment. From my readings I also understood the relations between ancient Celtic languages to be rather controversial. For example: "the genetic subclassification of the Celtic languages is still an open matter" [see footnote about the two competing theories in "broad terms", one supported by Koch] and perhaps more important "Gaulish, Lepontic and Celtiberian are not attested well enough to clarify their relations to the Insular Celtic languages"

To answer your question, yes, I am aware of the mixed nature of the La Graufesenque inscriptions....what does that have to do with the Gaulish word for "four" recorded in them (which clearly shows no foreign influence).

If it was a multilingual community then almost every word may be suspected to be influenced by the other languages, and thus not a very reliable reference for a vast area (such as Gallo-Brittonic). Actually a localized attestation is hardly evidence for a larger region. Let me express my skepticism more clearly: can you prove the Welsh word for 'four' (or other similar more recent words) were not brought by other waves of Celtic speakers from the continent and were spoken in Iron Age Britain?

[authun]

Koch certainly seems to be making the claim that I think he does. In Old Welsh, gynt indeed meant "heathens", in line with the Christian usage of Latin gentes.

If you truly believe this how can you explain that modern welsh 'gynt' means formerly, of yore, once ([url:28xe15l6]http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html[/url]) whilst at the same time maintaining that meanings don't change over time?

As for your assertion that 'gynt' is a loan from latin gens, see Matasovi?, Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic for its pre chistian cognates.

best
authun

[authun]

From my readings I also understood the relations between ancient Celtic languages to be rather controversial. For example: "the genetic subclassification of the Celtic languages is still an open matter" [see footnote about the two competing theories in "broad terms", one supported by Koch] and perhaps more important "Gaulish, Lepontic and Celtiberian are not attested well enough to clarify their relations to the Insular Celtic languages"

We don't even know if penegent is middle welsh or cumbric and there is no agreement as to how different these two are.

best
authun

[cagwinn]

Koch certainly seems to be making the claim that I think he does. In Old Welsh, gynt indeed meant "heathens", in line with the Christian usage of Latin gentes.

If you truly believe this how can you explain that modern welsh 'gynt' means formerly, of yore, once ([url:365az4ed]http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html[/url]) whilst at the same time maintaining that meanings don't change over time?

As for your assertion that 'gynt' is a loan from latin gens, see Matasovi?, Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic for its pre chistian cognates.

You are confusing two different words - the gynt that you are referring to is the mutated form of cynt, "formerly, etc." (from Gallo-Brittonic *cintu-). My gynt, the one that is derived from Latin gentes, means (to quote the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru) "tribe, people, nation, especially the pagan nations that harassed the Welsh, namely the Scandinavians and the Danes, also the English and the Normans."

Just so you know a little more about me, I have been studying Welsh (along with the other Celtic languages) since 1985 and Gaulish, Celtiberian, Proto-Celtic and Proto-Indo-European since 1991. From about '99-'03 I produced one of the first comprehensive reviews of the Gaulish language to appear online, including readings and translations of every major Gaulish inscription (I took it down as more complete surveys appeared that superseded my own efforts). For the past decade I have been moderating several academic-oriented Celtic studies mailing lists. While I make no claims to being an expert on Celtic linguistics, I am certainly no neophyte.

[authun]

My gynt, the one that is derived from Latin gentes, means (to quote the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru) "tribe, people, nation, especially the pagan nations that harassed the Welsh, namely the Scandinavians and the Danes, also the English and the Normans."

Good, I'm glad we have dispensed with the one to one correspondence, gynt = heathen and moved on to an interpretive use of the word. I have always favoured Hill of the Foreigners myself as the 1305 reference does not provide any clue as to whether they were pagan Anglo Saxons, Christian Anglo Saxons, Danes or Norman.

As to whether gent in the 1305 reference penegent does mean 'tribe, people, nation', I have not yet seen any proof that this is the case, one which absolutely requires this explanation, one where no other explanation will do. Both 'caint' (Eckwall) and 'gwynt' are possibilities. Hill of the Border or Hill of the Foreigners at least both convey the sense of a frontier or boundary. Head of the Hill is derived welsh pen, here meaning head or top and from cumbric 'gallt', meaning hill (Dawson). In this sense it would be a tautological compound, rather like Penhill, meaning hillhill, but unusual in so far as it uses two celtic elements rather than one celtic and one germanic. Personally I think this is rather tenuous due to the inclusion of 'e' or modern 'y'.

The reasons why an exact etymology is important for this hill are dating and possession and the nature of germanic expansion to the west along this important pass over the Pennines. Hill of the Heathens suggests that pre Christian Anglo Saxons possessed it, though there is no evidence to suggest that either the Deirans or Bernicians had advanced that far west in this area at that time. Also, if they possessed it, it begs the question why does it have a celtic name? The names of the other 'three peaks' as the triplet is known, are Ingleborough and Whernside, both of which are germanic in construction. Whernside derives its name from the quernstones manufactured on its slopes and, together with the anglo saxon or scandinavian lynchets along the valley sides in this area suggests that settlement was taking place on some scale. This settlement, as far as I know, is post conversion and there is no evidence to suggest pagan anglo saxons ever invaded Craven and Dent. So, what is the significance of Pen-y-Ghent? Is the naming reminiscent (cf. gynt) of the old border of Reghed or was it named at the time as a hill which marked the border with the english? It may even represent a border between celtic Dunoting and celtic Reghed.

I don't see how anyone can be sure.

While I make no claims to being an expert on Celtic linguistics, I am certainly no neophyte.

I am not arguing with the linguistics, it's the etymology which is at issue. What word does 'gent' represent and in what sense should it be applied? The implications of heathen, as opposed to foreigner, makes a difference of a few centuries and is more likely to refer to scandinavian heathens, in my opinion. Place name etymologies are difficult because one can be rarely sure whether the name truly represents what it purports to represent or whether it has become a naming convention. Pen-y-Ghent is important because it has the potential to tell us something either about the boundary or the survival of brythonic speaking enclaves.

best
authun

[cagwinn]

My gynt, the one that is derived from Latin gentes, means (to quote the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru) "tribe, people, nation, especially the pagan nations that harassed the Welsh, namely the Scandinavians and the Danes, also the English and the Normans."

Good, I'm glad we have dispensed with the one to one correspondence, gynt = heathen and moved on to an interpretive use of the word.

Are you interested in learning something, or just arguing? Because I don't have time for arguments - especially not with people who can't even admit that they are wrong about something (re: your confusion of the two gynt words). I suggest you research the medieval usage of the Latin word gentes - it meant both "people, tribe" (as the plural of gens) and, in Christian terminology, "heathens"; this was its primary meaning in medieval Welsh (the same word was borrowed by the Irish, via Christian Britons, as genti "heathens", later "Norsemen").

[authun]

Are you interested in learning something, or just arguing? Because I don't have time for arguments - especially not with people who can't even admit that they are wrong about something (re: your confusion of the two gynt words). I suggest you research the medieval usage of the Latin word gentes - it meant both "people, tribe" (as the plural of gens) and, in Christian terminology, "heathens"; this was its primary meaning in medieval Welsh (the same word was borrowed by the Irish, via Christian Britons, as genti "heathens", later "Norsemen").

How can you be so sure that the gent in penegent refers to exactly what you claim and with the meaning that you claim?

If you are willing to teach, I am willing to learn, but all I have seen so far is a declared statement and one which is contrary to the published etymology which I referred to above.

I have already told you that Hill of the Foreigners is my preferred interpretation but I would welcome your argument as to why we should reject Eckwall's 'caint'.

Do you have anything other than just a bold assertion which you defend with acrimony rather than reason?

best
authun

[Rumo]

Penyghent is supposed to mean "Hill of the Heathens" (which would be Pen-y-gynt in Modern Welsh; gynt is a loan from Latin gentes).

I have seen this proposed etymology although it was referred to 'Hill of the Foreigners'. But other etymologies are proposed too, eg Hill of the Winds, Head of the Hill or Hill of the Border.

Chris,
If I am not mistaken your debate started with the two replies above (I underlined a word there, though I guess Harry can defend himself if he chooses to). I am fond of linguistics and willing to learn, thus I hope you to present arguments why in Penegent we should see a toponym refering to pagans, and not one of other alternatives. So far it looks like your proposal is one of many.

In the end if a medieval toponym gets that controversial, how far can we go in reconstructing Iron Age British words and names?

[cagwinn]

Penyghent is supposed to mean "Hill of the Heathens" (which would be Pen-y-gynt in Modern Welsh; gynt is a loan from Latin gentes).

I have seen this proposed etymology although it was referred to 'Hill of the Foreigners'. But other etymologies are proposed too, eg Hill of the Winds, Head of the Hill or Hill of the Border.

Chris,
If I am not mistaken your debate started with the two replies above (I underlined a word there, though I guess Harry can defend himself if he chooses to). I am fond of linguistics and willing to learn, thus I hope you to present arguments why in Penegent we should see a toponym refering to pagans, and not one of other alternatives. So far it looks like your proposal is one of many.

In the end if a medieval toponym gets that controversial, how far can we go in reconstructing Iron Age British words and names?

Look, I have been participating on newsgroups and message boards for over a dozen years now - Authun is engaging in classic thread derailment, which most folks consider to be a form of Trolling. He can't argue linguistics with me on the same level as me and he knows it, so instead (and for reasons unknown to me) he is attempting to discredit me by bogging me down in unending, nitpicking arguments that have nothing to do with the question asked by the original poster (to which I posted a clear and accurate answer). I don't have the time for such nonsense.

The meaning of the medieval toponym is not that controversial - as I have already mentioned, "Hill of the Heathens" is the most recent translation of Penegent (by extension, we can suggest that heathens being referred to were Anglo-Saxon or early Scandinavian invaders). The reason that other etymologies have been ruled out is that they don't fit in well with our current understanding of Cumbric sound laws. For example, the name is unlikely to contain a cognate of OW Ceint (AS Kent) because other Cumbric "X-of-the -Y" names do not show the soft mutation of the second "Y" element (note for instance the name Penicuik, which is compared to Welsh pen y gog "Cuckoo Hill"; if soft mutation existed in Cumbric we would expect it to have produced something like *Peniguig), so *Penn-e-Ceint would have given us *Penecent or *Penekent in English, not Penegent.

[authun]

Look, I have been participating on newsgroups and message boards for over a dozen years now - Authun is engaging in classic thread derailment, which most folks consider to be a form of Trolling. He can't argue linguistics with me on the same level as me and he knows it, so instead (and for reasons unknown to me) he is attempting to discredit me by bogging me down in unending, nitpicking arguments that have nothing to do with the question asked by the original poster (to which I posted a clear and accurate answer). I don't have the time for such nonsense.

I would like to point out that it was your who interjected yourself into my reply to the thread starter.

You insist that you are correct whilst admitting that you are no expert on celtic linguistics. Yet you dismiss the late Eilert Ekwall who was not only an expert on OE, ON and Celtic languages but also a leading toponymist, one ideally qualified for onomastics in the British Isles.

My insistence that you explain why we should believe you and not him is not disruptive.

best
authun

[cagwinn]

I would like to point out that it was your who interjected yourself into my reply to the thread starter.

You insist that you are correct whilst admitting that you are no expert on celtic linguistics. Yet you dismiss the late Eilert Ekwall who was not only an expert on OE, ON and Celtic languages but also a leading toponymist, one ideally qualified for onomastics in the British Isles.

My insistence that you explain why we should believe you and not him is not disruptive.

:roll: Ekwall's work, while still retaining some value, is mostly outdated (and has been so for decades now). You should know this already.

[authun]

If I am not mistaken your debate started with the two replies above (I underlined a word there, though I guess Harry can defend himself if he chooses to). I am fond of linguistics and willing to learn, thus I hope you to present arguments why in Penegent we should see a toponym refering to pagans, and not one of other alternatives. So far it looks like your proposal is one of many.

In the end if a medieval toponym gets that controversial, how far can we go in reconstructing Iron Age British words and names?

Pen-y-Ghent is one of a handful of difficult etymologies remaining, so it is not typical. Toponymastics however is more than just linguistics, one has to decide from the many early spellings what the elements are. Cagwinn has focused purely on one early spelling, penegent, but there are others such as penaygent for example and the strikingly similar pennygant in west Roxburghshire. A toponymist will look at all the examples of early spellings and make judgements on what the elements are supposed to be. Ekwall for example concluded that the adjectival term caint applied. Why favour gynt over caint? Why reject gwynt? One needs a toponymic argument, not a linguistic argument.

Having decided or one or the other, it is a question as to how apply the meaning of the chosen element to the toponym concerned. Does it actually make sense? This is where linguistics enters the subject of toponymastics.

Linguistics shows us that the meaning of words change with time. However, we rarely know when a topological feature got its name, so which meaning do we apply? Cagwinn insists that the element has a singular meaning of heathen but, he also gives a dictionary definition which is much wider in scope with several possible interpretations; "tribe, people, nation, especially the pagan nations that harassed the Welsh, namely the Scandinavians and the Danes, also the English and the Normans." Ghent cannot mean all of those, so which one is it?

Cagwinn supposes it to be gynt citing Koch. My favoured argument is Andrew Breeze; Three Celtic Toponyms, Setantii, Blencathra and Pen-y-Ghent, in Northern History VOL 43; PART 1, pages 161-165. Without quoting the argument at length, I have copied and pasted his text below:

"In Armes Prydein ‘The Prophecy of Britain’, a fiery call to arms written in 940 after West Saxon capitulation to the Vikings at Leicester, the poet asserts that nations will combine to destroy the English, including gynhon Dulyn ‘the Northmen of Dublin’ (where gynhon is a double plural of gynt). He refers later to the hated English as gynhon ‘foreigners’, doomed to be Cadwaladr’s slaves and hucksters. Paralleling gynt and gynhon in Welsh poetry are gentes ‘Vikings’ in Welsh-Latin chronicles, and Old Irish genti ‘pagans; pagan Northmen’. Welsh gynt was so assimilated a term that it figures even in personal names like Bledgint.

Now, the forms of Pen-y-Ghent rule out a link with cant ‘edge, rim’, which has a back vowel, but they allow one with the Cumbric equivalent of gynt ‘foreigners’ from Latin gent(em). They hence suggest a meaning ‘hill of the foreigners’, whether English or Viking. Other toponyms support this. Pensax north-west of Worcester is ‘hill of Saxons’; Pennersaughs east of Dumfries is ‘the Saxon’s hill’. Even closer is Pennygant in west Roxburghshire/Borders, which makes better sense as ‘hill of the foreigners (= English)’ than ‘hill of the rim’."

An important aspect of toponymastics is that of supporting evidence from other toponyms for a proposed construction.

Nonetheless, Breeze does not make the assertion that cagwinn does, namely that gynt means heathen. Nor does Breeze state this is fact, merely that it is reasonable:

"So one may reasonably take Pen-y-Ghent as ‘hill of the foreigners’, whether English or Viking."

Now, the dating is important. I have explained my view earlier. This is Breeze's view:

"The form would not be ancient. It cannot predate the English occupation of Ribblesdale in the later seventh century and is probably later. After the Vikings occupied York in 866 and Northumbria collapsed, the Strathclyders reoccupied Cumbria, bringing their language with them. By the early tenth century they had pushed their southern frontier as far as Stainmore, which to this day separates Yorkshire from Cumbria. They held this border against Norse and English alike for about a century, until Strathclyde was absorbed by the kings of Scots, but the frontier on Stainmoor did not alter until 1092, when William Rufus annexed north Cumbria. In the tenth and eleventh centuries Pen-y-Ghent was thus a conspicuous sight for Britons going south (peacefully or otherwise) from the Eden valley into Ribblesdale. It was perhaps thus in the early tenth century, with a political and linguistic frontier some 15 miles to north of it, that this mountain was first called by the Cumbric equivalent of Welsh pen y gynt ‘hill of the foreigners’, meaning the English or more probably (since a Norse kingdom of York had replaced Northumbria) the Vikings."

Breeze also cites Coats and Breeze and Mary Higham, 1999 who contends that the third element represents cant ‘rim, edge’ and Watts, Cambridge Dictionary, who states it is unknown.

best
authun

[authun]

Ekwall's work, while still retaining some value, is mostly outdated (and has been so for decades now). You should know this already.

You will have no difficulty in demolishing his work then. I look forward to reading your treatise.

best
authun

[cagwinn]

If I am not mistaken your debate started with the two replies above (I underlined a word there, though I guess Harry can defend himself if he chooses to). I am fond of linguistics and willing to learn, thus I hope you to present arguments why in Penegent we should see a toponym refering to pagans, and not one of other alternatives. So far it looks like your proposal is one of many.

In the end if a medieval toponym gets that controversial, how far can we go in reconstructing Iron Age British words and names?

Pen-y-Ghent is one of a handful of difficult etymologies remaining, so it is not typical. Toponymastics however is more than just linguistics, one has to decide from the many early spellings what the elements are. Cagwinn has focused purely on one early spelling, penegent, but there are others such as penaygent for example and the strikingly similar pennygant in west Roxburghshire. A toponymist will look at all the examples of early spellings and make judgements on what the elements are supposed to be. Ekwall for example concluded that the adjectival term caint applied. Why favour gynt over caint? Why reject gwynt? One needs a toponymic argument, not a linguistic argument.

Having decided or one or the other, it is a question as to how apply the meaning of the chosen element to the toponym concerned. Does it actually make sense? This is where linguistics enters the subject of toponymastics.

Linguistics shows us that the meaning of words change with time. However, we rarely know when a topological feature got its name, so which meaning do we apply? Cagwinn insists that the element has a singular meaning of heathen but, he also gives a dictionary definition which is much wider in scope with several possible interpretations; "tribe, people, nation, especially the pagan nations that harassed the Welsh, namely the Scandinavians and the Danes, also the English and the Normans." Ghent cannot mean all of those, so which one is it?

Cagwinn supposes it to be gynt citing Koch. My favoured argument is Andrew Breeze; Three Celtic Toponyms, Setantii, Blencathra and Pen-y-Ghent, in Northern History VOL 43; PART 1, pages 161-165. Without quoting the argument at length, I have copied and pasted his text below:

"In Armes Prydein ‘The Prophecy of Britain’, a fiery call to arms written in 940 after West Saxon capitulation to the Vikings at Leicester, the poet asserts that nations will combine to destroy the English, including gynhon Dulyn ‘the Northmen of Dublin’ (where gynhon is a double plural of gynt). He refers later to the hated English as gynhon ‘foreigners’, doomed to be Cadwaladr’s slaves and hucksters. Paralleling gynt and gynhon in Welsh poetry are gentes ‘Vikings’ in Welsh-Latin chronicles, and Old Irish genti ‘pagans; pagan Northmen’. Welsh gynt was so assimilated a term that it figures even in personal names like Bledgint.

Now, the forms of Pen-y-Ghent rule out a link with cant ‘edge, rim’, which has a back vowel, but they allow one with the Cumbric equivalent of gynt ‘foreigners’ from Latin gent(em). They hence suggest a meaning ‘hill of the foreigners’, whether English or Viking. Other toponyms support this. Pensax north-west of Worcester is ‘hill of Saxons’; Pennersaughs east of Dumfries is ‘the Saxon’s hill’. Even closer is Pennygant in west Roxburghshire/Borders, which makes better sense as ‘hill of the foreigners (= English)’ than ‘hill of the rim’."

An important aspect of toponymastics is that of supporting evidence from other toponyms for a proposed construction.

Nonetheless, Breeze does not make the assertion that cagwinn does, namely that gynt means heathen. Nor does Breeze state this is fact, merely that it is reasonable:

"So one may reasonably take Pen-y-Ghent as ‘hill of the foreigners’, whether English or Viking."

Now, the dating is important. I have explained my view earlier. This is Breeze's view:

"The form would not be ancient. It cannot predate the English occupation of Ribblesdale in the later seventh century and is probably later. After the Vikings occupied York in 866 and Northumbria collapsed, the Strathclyders reoccupied Cumbria, bringing their language with them. By the early tenth century they had pushed their southern frontier as far as Stainmore, which to this day separates Yorkshire from Cumbria. They held this border against Norse and English alike for about a century, until Strathclyde was absorbed by the kings of Scots, but the frontier on Stainmoor did not alter until 1092, when William Rufus annexed north Cumbria. In the tenth and eleventh centuries Pen-y-Ghent was thus a conspicuous sight for Britons going south (peacefully or otherwise) from the Eden valley into Ribblesdale. It was perhaps thus in the early tenth century, with a political and linguistic frontier some 15 miles to north of it, that this mountain was first called by the Cumbric equivalent of Welsh pen y gynt ‘hill of the foreigners’, meaning the English or more probably (since a Norse kingdom of York had replaced Northumbria) the Vikings."

Breeze also cites Coats and Breeze and Mary Higham, 1999 who contends that the third element represents cant ‘rim, edge’ and Watts, Cambridge Dictionary, who states it is unknown.

best
authun

:roll: OMG - can you not see that you have just confirmed what I have been saying all along about the etymology of Penegent??!!! Or maybe you don't understand what it is you are quoting?

[cagwinn]

Ekwall's work, while still retaining some value, is mostly outdated (and has been so for decades now). You should know this already.

You will have no difficulty in demolishing his work then. I look forward to reading your treatise.

I think my suspicions about your status as a Troll have just been confirmed.