Help Required: Ancient Measures Software!

[SvenLittkowski]

Hi, this is Sven Littkowski and I have started to work on a second version of the Ancient Measures Calculator (http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtop...17&t=12586">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12586)!

AMC v1.0: http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/d/FNRCalculatorWindows.zip

AMC v2.0.DEMO: http://Navis.TerraRomana.org//d/AMC2.rar

The intention is to include many more ancient measure than the first version already had. So, if you know any ancient measure and how much it was, then add a posting to this thread. Please make sure your information is correct. You can be credited inside the software, if you want.

[D B Campbell]

Nice widget! I'm sure our American friends would appreciate some "imperial" measures. (But watch out for the gallon!)

EDIT: Details have been requested, so here goes:

imperial inch = 0.025400051 m
imperial foot = 12 inches = 0.304800612 m
imperial yard = 3 feet = 0.914401836 m
imperial mile = 1760 yards = 1609.34723136 m

imperial ounce = 28.349523125 g
imperial pound = 16 ounces = 453.592370000 g
imperial stone (UK) = 14 pounds = 6350.293180000 g
imperial short ton (US) = 2000 pounds = 907184.740000000 g
imperial long ton (UK) = 160 stones = 2240 pounds = 1016046.908800000 g

... and if anyone wants to tackle fluid measures, please feel free!

[SvenLittkowski]

Thanks a lot! Yes, ALL types of measures are welcome here!

[SvenLittkowski]

No other measures you want in the next version?

[D B Campbell]

You don't seem to have Greek distance measurements, Sven. (Or maybe I have overlooked them?)

[SvenLittkowski]

Please name them, and give any information you have about them, so I can add them! thanks!

[D B Campbell]

You don't seem to have Greek distance measurements, Sven.

Please name them, and give any information you have about them, so I can add them!

The program appears to have the following, already:

• ACTUS
  CUBITUS (s.b. cubitum i.m.h.o.)
  DIGITUS
  GRADUS
  LEUGA
  MILIARIUS (MILLE PASSUS)
  PALMUS
  PASSUS
  PERTICA
  PES
  STADIUM
  

We definitely need POUS, the Greek foot which Hultsch equated to 308.3 mm. (I know that other feet standards existed in the ancient world.) And then we need the constituent parts of the POUS; namely, the DAKTYL or "finger" measurement, which was 16th part of the foot (thus 19.26875 mm) and the PALAIST? or "palm" measurement, which was the quarter part (thus 4 daktyloi, or 77.075 mm). And we really ought to have the intermediate measurement known as the SPITHAM? or "span", which equated to 3 palaistai or 12 daktyls (thus 231.225 mm) -- ancient arrow-shooting catapults were often classified using this measurement (as in "3-span"). And finally, in this family of measures, the P?CHYS or Greek cubit, equating to 2 spithamai or 6 palaistai, and thus 462.45 mm.

Any more, anyone?

Edit: Actually, while we're on Greek measurements, it would probably be useful to have the ORGYIA or Greek "fathom" (which Herodotus uses), a measurement equal to 6 podes (Greek feet) and thus 1.8498m. The PLETHRON (which Polybius uses), a measurement equal to 100 podes, and thus 30.83m. And finally, the Greek STADION of 600 podes/100 orgyiai/400 pêcheis, and thus 184.98m.

And, yes, I know these are deceptively accurate metric figures, and that the real ones would've been more approximate, but it's for a digital calculator, and digital calculators don't do approximate!

[D B Campbell]

For liquid measures, it looks as if you have the Roman ones already:

• AMPHORA
  CHEONIX (btw This should be CHOENIX)
  CONGIUS
  CULLEUS
  CYATHUS
  HEMINA
  LIGULA/COCHLEAR (what does COCHLEAR mean here?)
  QUARTARIUS (this is a Dry measure)
  SEXTANS
  SEXTARIUS
  TRIENS
  URNA

What about some Greek ones?

Hultsch gives the METR?T?S as 39.39 Litres. The twelfth part of the metrêtês is the CHOUS, which is thus 3.2825 Litres. The twelfth part of the chous is the KOTYL?, which is thus 0.273541667 Litres. There is a smaller measure, half of a kotylê, called a TETARTON, which is thus 0.136770833 Litres.

[Simplex]

....hello ...
...if I'd be allowed to bring up a wish, I'd like to have incorporated the measure here:
[url:3uxondb7]http://www.sulinet.hu/oroksegtar/data/telepulesek_ertekei/Bolcske/pages/Pannoniai_kutatasok/nemet/008_wosin.htm[/url]
...... and that would be , at least if I'm assuming correctly that the "pedes" that DB Campbell mentioned is identical to the "pes Monetalis" , the "orthodoron".
Greez & Thanks in advance.

Simplex

BTW: Sven Littkowski, your website is a sight for sore eyes. :mrgreen:
Feel free to use:
[url:3uxondb7]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/download/file.php?id=4427&mode=view[/url]
and
[url:3uxondb7]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/download/file.php?id=4426&mode=view[/url]
Depicting one of five late roman ships found in the foundation-trench of Hilton hotel Mainz in 1981-82.
I can't recall which one of the five it was right now.(Photographs from 2008)

[SvenLittkowski]

Thanks for all these measurements. Yes, we are going to include the ancient Greek measurements!

As soon as it comes out, there will be a download link inside the Software section of our maritime archaeological Forum Navis Romana!
[url:7cwm4y4v]http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/Forum[/url]

I also will post here to inform you it's ready for the download! And as always, do not hesitate to PM me anytime convenient for you!

[SvenLittkowski]

[size=150:8t6okc4c]UPDATE

Finally, I am releasing a DEMO VERSION of the upcoming FNR ANCIENT MEASURES CALCULATOR to the members of this forum![/size]

The purpose is not, that the full version would cost money - the FNR AMC will always be free of costs. But before releasing the full version, i want to ensure that we get many more, new ancient measures, and all of them at the proper place, into the new software. You all can help me.

I have tried my best to incorporate the suggestions of more ancient measures into the new software. But hold your breath - it's just the demo version! It does not (yet) calculate, but I want you all to use it and tell me the following things:
1. Are there any ancient measures missing which you would like to have included? If so, send me an e-mail with name, origin and value of that measure.
2. I really need to know, if all measures are inside the appropriate categories (weight, distance, etc.). Please help me.

Please get it here: http://navis.TerraRomana.org/d/AMC2.rar

[SvenLittkowski]

UPDATE

A new demo version is online! This new demo version is already capable to convert some measures. Please download it, extract the archive file with WinRar, and post here in this thread your feedbacks. Thanks!

Main changes to previous demo version:
This demo version does not require anymore additional files to run. It functions as it is.

[Paullus Scipio]

The problem with Duncan's 'Greek' measures for length is that there was NEVER any such thing accepted all over Greece as a 'Greek foot' !!

In fact, there is no certainty about just how many different measures of length were in use in any given part of Greece at any one time. ( Greek Metrology is a subject on which there is little certainty). Worse still, there were not only 'cubits', but also 'Royal cubits' which were different again - bigger, of course !!

Roman metrology is fairly well established, but alas Greek is not. Duncan's relations are sound - cubit = 1.5 feet/pous, and that there were 24 'fingers'/dactyls to the cubit and 16 to the foot.

However, in classical times alone there were at least three different lengths in use for the foot, and each of these was only accurate to within 1-3 mm - so forget those myriad decimal places for the non-existent 'Greek foot' .

For what it's worth, there are at least four (classical - Byzantine measures of the same name were often different again) 'Greek' foot measurements so far identified:

1. The 'Attic' foot at 294 mm aprox
2. The 'Doric' foot at 327 mm aprox
3. The 'Samian'( Ionian) foot at 349 mm aprox
4. The 'Salamine' foot at 306 mm aprox. ( which might equate approximately with what Herodotus (I.178) refers to as the "common" cubit of 1.5 feet such feet.However, it should be noted that Herodotus is using 'common/ordinary' to distinguish it from a 'Royal' cubit 3 dactyls longer), we don't know for certain the length of cubit he had in mind. Nor did he mean it was in 'common' use as some have supposed.....

[D B Campbell]

I think I already dealt with these doubts, back when the thread was started.

We definitely need POUS, the Greek foot which Hultsch equated to 308.3 mm. (I know that other foot standards existed in the ancient world.)

And, yes, I know these are deceptively accurate metric figures, and that the real ones would've been more approximate, but it's for a digital calculator, and digital calculators don't do approximate!

So I think everyone realises the limitations.

[Paullus Scipio]

Sorry but I disagree.....hence the need for clarification and further information.

You mentioned "the Greek foot", clearly implying that there was only one Greek foot....and then compounded this further by giving one measure for this, which was a guessed/deduced figure that does not equate exactly to any of the known 'Greek feet', and compounded the idea of a singular Greek foot with "other foot standards existed in the ancient world", again implying there was but one Greek foot, but 'other feet' elsewhere in the ancient world ( such as Roman, Babylonian, Egyptian? ).

Taken altogether your post was clear in suggesting that there was but one "Greek foot" ( your term, there was actually no 'Greek foot'),as you apparently believe judging by your published work. ("span" for example also had many different measures) This is quite misleading and incorrect, and really needs to be corrected for an on-line 'converter' which might be widely used, since the more accurate the information, the better.

Equally, your multi-decimal point figures are also misleading,(aside from being incorrect anyway) because "calculators don't do approximate" is not at all a reason for multiple decimal places to umpteen thousandths of a millimetre.(calculators work perfectly well using 'whole' numbers of millimetres. Decimal points are irrelevant to the workings of a calculator)

Greek measures were 'approximate' for fairly obvious reasons. It is because they did not have the means to measure closer than 1-2 mm accuracy, for that is the limt of accuracy a sculptor could work to on a metrological relief.