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Legionary shield markings...
#16
Thanks Crispvs, I also used thes pieces for my own shield! They did do as Brian and Mike suggested - the fitted on the shield face at the corner point of the rear bracing. I riveted mine on - which would, I think add a little strength, but I also agree with Matt Lukes that a curved ply shield should be strong enough to not need any bracing. Perhaps the shields of antiquity were less so(?) animal glues adhesive properties can degrade in damp conditions. :wink:

[Image: Newshield.jpg]
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#17
Matt Lukes wrote:
Quote:And there's only possibly one unit blazon known- the tombstone of GN. MVSIVS shows a particular design and being the Aquilifer, it's thought by some that his represents the Legio's (XIIII) symbology.

There's a second piece of evidence for that particular design being that of Legio XIIII Gemina - an almost identical design to Gnaeus Musius' appears on a column relief showing an ordinary legionary with rectangular shield, from Mainz 75 A.D. - when Legio XIIII was based there. ( see other thread on Legionary shields by Adrian Peterson)

As to colour, you are right that our evidence is scanty....the late Roman writer Vegetius, writing of the 'antiqua legion' says that "every cohort had its shields painted in a manner peculiar to itself. [presumably with reference to colour, with a uniform Legio design? ....but we don't know for sure.] The name of each soldier was also written on his shield [front or back? Junius Dubitatus of the VIII th legio had his on the 'umbo'...] together with the number of the cohort and century to which he belonged. Some First century gladiator 'scuta' had a solid background colour such as bright red, bright yellow and so on with a design picked out in black and white....Legions could almost certainly be identified by their shield devices, if Tacitus' anecdote of the two legionaries at Cremona in 69 AD picking up enemy shields in order to get close to enemy catapults and disable them, is anything to go by.....

Quote:Trajan's column shows something like 17 or 18 different shield blazons and yet was it only three or five Legiones took part in the campaign?

Elements of roughly twenty or so Legions took part in the campaign, plus Praetorian cohorts. Some of the designs can be positively identified as Praetorian.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#18
Quote:Legions could almost certainly be identified by their shield devices, if Tacitus' anecdote of the two legionaries at Cremona in 69 AD picking up enemy shields in order to get close to enemy catapults and disable them, is anything to go by.....

Which happened at night IIRC, so colours 'could' have been irrelevant, but a destinct design would have been more indentifiable even in poor light.

Quote:And there's only possibly one unit blazon known- the tombstone of GN. MVSIVS shows a particular design and being the Aquilifer, it's thought by some that his represents the Legio's (XIIII) symbology.

Don;t forget about the possible shield of II Adiutrix..
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

There's also the depiction on the Arch at Orange showing what could be II AVG blazon with the capricorns and stylised 's' shapes.
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#19
This is excellent. I think we'll go with the laurel wreath and crescents. Firstly, because it seems to be different from what everybody else has, and secondly, because that's what's on the oval shield i bought from Peronis! :wink:
"i may not agree with what you say, sir, but i will defend to the death your right to say it"
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#20
Peroni wrote:
Quote:Don;t forget about the possible shield of II Adiutrix..
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

There's also the depiction on the Arch at Orange showing what could be II AVG blazon with the capricorns and stylised 's' shapes.

Yes indeed, and the possible association of a particular thunderbolt emblem with Ram insignia/imago that might be I Minervia on Trajan's Column. However all these are a bit speculative compared to the Legio Xiiii example, I think.

What is interesting is that the well-known thunderbolt design and its many variations does not become prominent until roughly 75 AD and after, and never becomes universal......

Quote:I think we'll go with the laurel wreath and crescents.

Certainly that design appears on legionary 'scuta' on Trajan's column......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#21
Quote:Thanks Crispvs, I also used thes pieces for my own shield! They did do as Brian and Mike suggested - the fitted on the shield face at the corner point of the rear bracing. I riveted mine on - which would, I think add a little strength, but I also agree with Matt Lukes that a curved ply shield should be strong enough to not need any bracing. Perhaps the shields of antiquity were less so(?) animal glues adhesive properties can degrade in damp conditions. :wink:


Well, I have had issues with the ply separating from the bracing on one of my scuta. perhaps I need to make this modification too!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#22
With regard to the gammas being attached through the bracing to act as reinforcement, I too feel that this is very likely. The only reason why my shield gammas are not riveted though the bracing is that by the time I thought of it, John Blaymires had already finished the restorative work on my shield and had already called me to say that it was ready. For the time being, financial issues mean that I won't be refacing my shield any time soon, but next time I do, the gammas will definitely be going through the bracing.

To add to the list of possibly identifiable shield blazons: C. Valerius Crispvs' stele may well give us that of Legio VIII Augusta.

With regard to blazons on Trajan's column, a few years ago I went over photographs of the entire sculpture and copied every individual blazon I could identify as Roman as opposed to Dacian. I found only nine blazons associated with rectangular scuta and three of these were consistently associated with Praetorian standards. This left six. The possibility of vexilations of as many as six legions being involved in the campaigns does not seem unlikely, so these blazons, whatever their actual accuracy, seem likely to be intended to identify particular units. I found something over fifty blazons associated with clipeii. Unfortunately I no longer have the drawings I made at the time, but if anyone here has a good set of photographs of the column and has nothing whatsoever to do for a weekend then they could possibly confirm this.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#23
Crispus wrote:
Quote:With regard to blazons on Trajan's column, a few years ago I went over photographs of the entire sculpture and copied every individual blazon I could identify as Roman as opposed to Dacian. I found only nine blazons associated with rectangular scuta and three of these were consistently associated with Praetorian standards. This left six. The possibility of vexilations of as many as six legions being involved in the campaigns does not seem unlikely, so these blazons, whatever their actual accuracy, seem likely to be intended to identify particular units. I found something over fifty blazons associated with clipeii. Unfortunately I no longer have the drawings I made at the time, but if anyone here has a good set of photographs of the column and has nothing whatsoever to do for a weekend then they could possibly confirm this.

I'm afraid you can't really do this exercise from photographs - not even the Cichorius ones, excellent as they are. The column itself is far too damaged to work from, and has been for at least 50 years. The only reasonable way to do it, is work from the excellent plaster casts, made before industrial/car pollution effectively crumbled the column friezes. There are three of these extant - one in Germany, one in the V&A museum London, one - the best displayed - in the Museo de Civilita Romana in Rome. I set out to accurately record the shield emblems in 1975, in Rome, but had a limited time to make detailed sketches. Unfortunately due to time constraints, I had to work quickly and the catalogue was incomplete. I later completed it from the V&A cast, and then checked my sketches against the Cichorius plates ( the British Library has a copy). That is the basis of the shield devices published in "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome", revised fourth edition, Phil Barker, Wargames Research Group 1981( still in print I believe) Digression:that volume and edition also publishes Late Roman Shield patterns from the "Notitia Dignitatum" and thus contains some 200 shield patterns in all, all accurately reproduced. N.B. - Must be fourth Edition.

However, I am unsure to this day whether I managed to capture every single shield pattern from the Column ! However, the fact that the number of shield devices, even allowing for Praetorian ones, roughly matches the number of Legions taking part in the two Wars, and the prominence of the devices leads me to think that each Legion had a single device ( although I also think each Praetorian cohort may have had a separate device), which appeared somewhere on the Column......

[see my post ante and the shield devices concerned, together with key]
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#24
Thanks for that.

I am pretty sure from memory that the photographs I used were actually of casts. I should have mentioned this in my earlier post. The library book I found them in may have been (or may not have been - it was after all a little over fifteen years ago) 'The Dacian Stones Speak', whose author I forget offhand.

I too, felt that the blazons suggested each Praetorian cohort had its own blazon. There are always three Praetorian standards and the same three shield blazons associated with them.

With regard to the clipeii, I do remember that I found it very difficult to establish what had been depicted on some shields and some of my rough drawings showed only partial blazons. I also found that there were a number of instances where it was difficult to tell if a shield was being carried by a Dacian or a Roman auxiliary in 'native' dress. The Dacians are also generally depicted with the same clipeius style of shield, meaning that some blazons are presumably intended to represent Dacian blazons. Where I thought a shield was being carried by a Dacian warrior I did not include it in my list.

Anyway, I no longer have the list and the drawings I did then, so this is all based on my memory of what I found.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#25
Yes, most of the photos you see are the Cichorius plates of the German cast.

It is a great pity your drawings don't survive......I'd love to have compared notes ! Sad (
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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