Legionary shield markings...

[Adrian Petersson]

Salve!
Adrian's the name, old scrote and reenactor, and i am in the process of starting a group reenacting the Ist Minervia pF up here in the currently frozen north. I was wondering, being relatively new to the Roman world, what we should have on our shields? Is there any specific colour associated with our patron diety? Can anyone link me any articles on legionary shields? (read Peronis' article on auxiliary shields,and visited the site of a German group also reenacting the 1st MpF, and they had white shields)
Right, that out of the way, has anyone else seen these people?:
http://www.medieval-arms.co.uk/ma/actio ... roman.html
If they are genuine, there are some very inexpensive articles for sale there, but i work on the theory 'if anything appears to be too good to be true, it is!' so i thought i'd cast about a bit and see if anyone has anything to say about them....and if they are genuine, there ya go! Some cheap stuff! But beware, not all of it authentic! They have some very ropey looking gladii.
Here are some very trustworthy people. Don't know if you already know them, probably some of you do, but i have found them to be reliable.
http://www.battlemerchant.com/Romans-an ... :::54.html
List on the bottom left of the page...

Vale!
//Adrian Petersson

[jvrjenivs]

Hi Adrian,

in fact we know very little about shield designs. We know a bunch of designs from different relief's, steles, etc. Trajans column is one of the main sources. I haven't come across anything about background colour in general, not to say a combination with the legions deities.

Then about the merchants you mention. I've done business with both Medieval Arms (which also ships from Germany under the Aus-omas-truhe brand). They also have some ebay listening, which are even cheaper as their main site items. But not all is listed there. They are fine to do business with. Products are mainly deepeeka, so the same you can get through Battlemerchant, Armamentaria, Armae, Armillum and many others. Some of their products are even worse, as you say. They're a warehouse seller, so don't expect to good information about the object, but if you know where you're looking for, they are indeed cheap.

[Adrian Petersson]

Hej Jvrjenivs!
That's great. Both the shield information and about medieval arms.
//Adrian

[Matt Lukes]

Oh yeah definitely- never rely on merchants for information LOL Even if sometimes products are worked on by knowledgeable people, they're all still mass-produced usually as quickly as possible so you can never expect quality or accuracy.

We do indeed know very little about shield colours- the majority of recreations are just copies of other ones, hence the near universality of red; yes the Dura scutum, the only coloured one known, is red, but it's not what could be considered a 'typical' legionary piece since it's from 255CE, is painted quite elaborately and not like any military blazon we know of and so on. I expect some consider the red being the colour of Mars makes it fit, but that's just at theory like any other. A number of reenactor groups have chosen to do things differently and use blue or another colour for the main field, but really there's no real proof for anything. It's all just reasonable or 'not impossible'. Even the exact nature of the blazon isn't clear- the carvings show the elements, but colours and painting styles are anyone's guess; the Dura shields, which are our only source of information so far as I know, are all realistically-painted- not like the modern 'logo' style reenactors usually use- so to my mind that makes more realistic painting on legionary scuta reasonable. Beyond that, however, once more it's anyone's guess. And there's only possibly one unit blazon known- the tombstone of GN. MVSIVS shows a particular design and being the Aquilifer, it's thought by some that his represents the Legio's (XIIII) symbology. Of course there is a possibility that even every Cohors I think it was had a different blazon depending on how one interprets various ancient authors' statements- or the differnet segments of a Legio could have been colour-coded (an easy way to distinguish friend from foe would be shield field colour) or many other theories. The other sculptural evidence is also problematic- Trajan's column shows something like 17 or 18 different shield blazons and yet was it only three or five Legiones took part in the campaign? So it's all kind of dodgy in reality- which makes it best by far to really keep to what's known, i.e. copying a definite blazon and not just mix-and-matching elements, for example, because so much else is uncertain. If you limit the uncertainty, you'll be as 'correct' as is possible. Otherwise you're quickly off in fantasy land...

[Adrian Petersson]

Yeah, it's a proper minefield, isn't it? I was thinking of keeping it simple. Like an image of Minerva's head, a laurel wreath ( is that the thing people keep referring to as a 'Victory'?), The title of the legion, and Gamma patterns in the corners...
And as for 'fantasy land'...well, i accept the note of warning in what you wrote..however, i am a firm believer in careful speculative construction. So, when i am fully read about all the existing patterns, i'm sure something will become apparent to us, if the above doesn't work (which we will decide for ourselves). I have to say though, i am baffled by the attachment to TC and the almost total ignoring of the Adamklissi monument when it comes to inspiration for authenticity. As far as i can tell, there is little archeological back up for anything on TC, and lots (relatively, at least) for Adamklissi, and yet it is to TC that we turn for 'proof', time and time again. Weren't the Adamklissi Metopes sculpted by the soldiers themselves? If that is the case, that would surely make it more accurate, like say, a photo compared to an oil painting? Even were it not the case, it still looks more convincing to me. Although i accept the need for caution, and will in fact exercise just that, i think there is far too much store set by TC, as fascinating as it is.
//Adrian Petersson

[PhilusEstilius]

Adrian.
Where you mention about Victory in many cases she does carry a Laurel wreath which is most times shown in her raised right hand, and also she many times carries a Palm branch in her left hand but leening against her shoulder.

The image of Victory is of course a full blown figure with at times her wings down but at other times with the wings upwards, the image with the wings mostly down has from late Roman times become associated with the Christian Angel and can be seen on many coins of later Emperors.
Where in another topic of yours I have made mention of the three symbols of the Ist Minerva as being, The goddess Minerva herself, The Ram, and Victory with Ram, I would think this refers maybe to an image of the Victory with a ram at her side.

[Matt Lukes]

Who ignores the Adamklissi Meotopes? hock: We look at them constantly LOL There's a whole big thing on them in the hamata doubler thread, which is the most recent use I think. There's just virtually nothing in the way of scutum blazons or elements shown there- the most there is seems to be clear edge binding and the corner 'Lambda' shapes (wish we knew just what those are- they appear so often they must be something signficant).

[jkaler48]

There is some information on shields in the Photo section of the Roman shields yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Romanshield/
Photos of many of the patterns in use by reenactment groups are there also. Mostly red background as Matt mentions

[Adrian Petersson]

Sorry Matt, i didn't mean that like it read. To me, it seems some people i have met or who's articles i have read much prefer TC and seem to do the whole fingers-in-the-ears singing "la laaa lala" thing when you try to talk to them about Adamklissi. I suppose it's all about personal preference. oops:

[PhilusEstilius]

Matt,

Where you mention about the Lambda shapes I have often considered if they could infact be a strengthening device at each corner of a scutum where rivets or pins go through plates and into a backing frame at the rear ( however I can't say that I have seen any such plates that may have been found, plenty of metal shield edgings of course )

[mcbishop]

Where you mention about the Lambda shapes I have often considered if they could infact be a strengthening device at each corner of a scutum where rivets or pins go through plates and into a backing frame at the rear ( however I can't say that I have seen any such plates that may have been found, plenty of metal shield edgings of course )

I agree and whilst the main Dura rectangular shield (No.629 in James 2004*) is a dead loss from the point of analysis of its structure (largely obliterated in the conservation of the painted facing) the fragmentary corner (No.631) in Simon's report is more instructive. The reinforcing strips on the rear are attached to the board with dowels which 'pass through the ply' so it is feasible that the lambdas could have been attached to these, although they might have been wooden rather than metal. Against that, it has to be said there are no obvious traces of them amongst the surface patterning on that fragment or, indeed, within the painted design of the more complete board.

Mike Bishop

* James, S. 2004: The Excavations at Dura-Europos 1928?1937, Final Report VII. The Arms and Armour and Other Military Equipment, London

[Matt Lukes]

Oh no, of course I'm sure nobody took what you wrote the wrong way Adrian It's an all-too-true fact that sometimes people do intentionally ignore evidence if it doesn't fit with their ideas.

I think it's a pretty common theory that the 'lambda' elements could be reinforcement for the reverse frame corners, although I'm honestly not so sure; really the shield, as I wrote previously, is pretty strong in its own right when it's just layered 1.5mm (or so) plies and a linen facing. The strip frame on the back of the corner from Dura is really rather flimsy and if typical does make me wonder if it really is of much structural use- and if it needs obverse reinforcement to hold its corners in place, well... :| And the 'lambdas' only appear on a portion of the scuta in sculpture- if they were structural I would expect to see them more often or all the time. It seems to me that it's rather more likely they're just decorative, given that they appear on so many Roman things- the Vexillum, theres a Tunica from Palestine (IIRC), the Lobith gladius scabbard and even a belt plate in my collection has them punched in the corners, just to name a few (very diverse examples). They're always associated with corners, so that itself must have some significance and it's just for that reason they appear so on scuta- the reverse frame position seems to me to be just conincidental.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Crispus mentioned they had found these devices somewhere, and has them on his scutum I believe.
I don't recall the details though.
Perhaps Paul will deign to comment?

[Crispvs]

I do indeed have gamma shapes on my shield. The evidence they are based on (aside from all of the sculptural depictions) is two copper-alloy fragments which I believe are in the York Castle Museum (I have not seen them myself) and which MAY be the remains of shield gammas, as opposed to furniture ornaments or the like. This photo of them was sent to me by Mike Hardy.



I am not entirely sure who this 'Paul' character you refer to is. :wink:

"Lobith gladius scabbard"

Actually gamma shapes appear on virtually all of the locket plates of that group. I wrote about them recently in an article which I will eventually get around to putting up on the RMRS website.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks for the reply Crispus, I wonder if I have a shot of these somewhere. Been to York Three times now..... :?