GJC: John 19:21 says, "And so the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews', but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews'" (NASB)
It seems likely that a centurion or some other officer, and more than just a few soldiers were present during all executions. Capital punishment was (and is) serious business, after all, and carried a significant gravitas beyond the victim's personal experience. The State would have been well represented, and the order came de facto from Caesar himself, as the one sentencing was acting in his stead.
As said previously, there would have been some concern that Jesus' disciples would rise up and try to protect Him from the death sentence's being carried out. That was the concern of the Jewish leaders, and the Romans, of course, were all about keeping order. They had plenty of soldiers with not much to do, so obviously they'd march them out when it seemed like they ought to. There had been others who claimed to be Messiah, as "everyone knew", but nothing apparently had received the same attention as Jesus of Nazareth. So the Romans would probably have been cautious about possible uprising.
Clearly (to me), the video presented below and the Julius Caesar "connection" is spurious.
But we need to be careful that this thread doesn't degenerate into an argument about the validity of Christianity. As long as we can keep on topic, we should be able to continue the discussion.
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Mark Hayes
"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades
"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
Remember that there was a large crowd of people coming to Jerusalem from out of town to celebrate the passover. Plus wasn't it a a special passover since it also fell on the sabbath? It was a busy time with lots of visitors. It's only logical to think there would have been plenty of soldiers called in as a show of force to keep the peace.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
Quote:GJC: John 19:21 says, "And so the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews', but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews'" (NASB)
That is what I said, the title was given to him by others, and not for his benefit.
The chief priests were the ones who insisted pilate crucify him, were they not?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
There has been put forward an opinion that the painting of the last supper is incorrect in its layout, for it should have been set out as a Triclinium for the guest of Honour has to be seated second in on the left side,
His right hand man so to speak is then at the end seat on the left, where in fact this would have been Judas and when Christ leaned over to him and said you must go and do what you have to do.
This is where Judas went off as arranged between he and Christ to go to Caiaphas, for to be arrested was the only way Christ would ever get to have an interview with the Cheif of the Religion.
Then later when he went into the garden he was bleeding from the forehead, which is indeed a medical failing of many people when under stress where tiny capiliaries can burst in ones forehead.
The money that was given to Judas was in fact a common situation of practice for anyone who would betray a criminal.
From then on everything back fired for Christ and the trial went ahead where the leaders of the Jewish religion were the ones who wanted rid of what had been a Thorn in their side, the normal penalty for the crimes he was said to be guilty of was crucifixion.
This is where we must ask the question as to why particularly with the Roman Courts there was never any written records of this matter.
There has been put forward an opinion that the painting of the last supper is incorrect in its layout, for it should have been set out as a Triclinium for the guest of Honour has to be seated second in on the left side,
His right hand man so to speak is then at the end seat on the left, where in fact this would have been Judas and when Christ leaned over to him and said you must go and do what you have to do he had no obstruction in leaving.
This is where Judas went off as arranged between he and Christ to go to Caiaphas, for to be arrested was the only way Christ would ever get to have an interview with the Chief of the Religion.
Then later when he went into the garden he was bleeding from the forehead, which is indeed a medical failing of many people when under stress where tiny capiliaries can burst in ones forehead.
The money that was given to Judas was in fact a common situation of practice for anyone who would betray a criminal.
From then on everything back fired for Christ and the trial went ahead where the leaders of the Jewish religion were the ones who wanted rid of what had been a Thorn in their side, the normal penalty for the crimes he was said to be guilty of was crucifixion.
This is where we must ask the question as to why particularly with the Roman Courts there was never any written records of this eventfull matter.
My apologies...yes it is true that others claimed Christ to be the 'King of the Jews'. In fact it was the chief priests who wanted this titled placed on Him (or correctly as already stated 'I am King of the Jews') to incite Pilate to pronounce the death penalty.
They also used put Pilate in a corner by stating "if you let this Man go, you are not Caeser's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caeser." When Pilate asked the crowd "shall I crucify your King?" the chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caeser!"
Christ also said that He had no kingdom on earth.
It is a pitty as Brian as stated, that it wasn't recorded by the Roman courts.
Finally I think everyone agrees that there would have been a siginficant soldiers to keep an eye on things.
Just to add something to the discussion and certainly not to get into any modern religious discussion, there is the text at Mat 27:40. There the original Greek word used is "stauros" which in classical Greek meant an upright stake or pale. Both the apostle Peter and Paul used the word "xylon" which also means an upright stake with no cross beam. In Latin a single stake for impalement of a criminal was called a "Crux simplex" and has been extensively portrayed in art as a simple upright stake. Here is a photo I took at the Capitoline museum in Rome of a condemned man tied to a simple upright stake. Granted it is not Christ but it does display the horrific death experienced by those condemned.
[attachment=2672]Italy2008714.JPG[/attachment]
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
I don't know where you got most of that from but it certainly does not come from any of our sources. Hence it would appear to modern disingenuous speculation and nothing more. There is little evidence to tell us how people would have sat/lain at passover meals and there may have been many different seating practices in operation - we simply cannot know these things. It is true that the room may have been laid out like a Roman triclinium, but Christ and His apostles were not Romans and it is equally (or even more) possible that it may have have been laid out differently. There is no way that we can have any idea of whether or not they would have followed a Roman (ie foreign) dining practice. A sixteenth century painting of the event may not be correct no matter how famous it is, but in any case no-one would consider it evidence of any sort anyway. The Last Supper, though, is not the subject of this thread so I would suggest moving back to the matters at hand.
There is also zero evidence for Christ having made some sort of deal with Judas to betray Him - it is simply a modern reconstruction which assumes information not given by the contemporary sources. It is true that if a normal person wanted an interview with the man who was the de-facto head of state, the request would probably be refused, but we know that He had already met some of the Chief Priests whilst preaching in the temple and as these men were all close (and even related) to Caiaphas, if He had wished to communicate something to him, He could probably have arranged a meeting with one or more of them had it suited His purpose. Added to that, John's gospel tells us that one of Christ's disciples (probably from the wider group of disciples rather than one of the twelve apostles) actually knew Caiaphas and at least two members of the Sanhedrin were sympathetic to Jesus. Nicodemus had come to meet with Him and discuss spiritual matters and Joseph of Arimathea, although it seems he had not made his sympathy public, was sufficiently sympathetic to petition Pilate for His body and donate his own tomb. Thus, if Jesus had wanted to communicate with a forum Caiaphas was a part of and might listen to, in time He could have done so without taking the drastic step of having Himself arrested to gain an immediate interview where he would be in a position of vulnerability and could be taken for an acknowledged criminal.
I don't know where the detail of bleeding from the forehead comes from - it certainly isn't mentioned in any of the gospels. If you have access to a contemporary source which mentions this then there are many millions of people who would be very keen to hear from you. :wink:
As to records of court proceedings, I am sure that they did exist, but like the records of pretty much every other one of the millions of court cases which must have taken place over the centuries of Roman justice, they have not survived.
There does, however, appear to have been a report of the matter in Rome's archives, for this is what the 'Acts of Pilate' which Antoninus Pius had access to in AD155 probably were - a part of a report to Rome that Pilate must surely have made at the time. We know from Pliny the Younger's correspondence that any little matter would be reported back to Rome, and the execution of a man who had been attracting thousands of followers must surely have been a matter Pilate reported back on. In fact it is possible that the 'Acts of Pilate' might originally have been the collected reports from throughout his praefecture, as it is reasonable to assume that the reports of all governors and prefects would have been kept in order to be consulted where necessary. Unfortunately these things simply do not survive. Who knows what was burned during the Visigoth and Vandal sackings of Rome, quite aside from what was not copied before its papyrus simply disintegrated or its ink faded through age anyway?
Please Brian, a good historian starts with the source material and only consults modern theories after all surviving contemporary sources have been fully read and considered. Many modern theories have been advanced more for the purpose of discrediting Christianity than for any purpose of historiographical rigour. It is important not to be misled by these. If what you read says something happened, before you take it at face value, check to see if any contemporary source mentions it. If not, then ask yourself if it is a reasonable assumption based on what the contemporary source materials do say or show. If it does not seem to be securely based on what contemporary sources say, them you are better off disregarding it.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
I don't know where the detail of bleeding from the forehead comes from - it certainly isn't mentioned in any of the gospels. If you have access to a contemporary source which mentions this then there are many millions of people who would be very keen to hear from you. :wink:
Crispvs
I believe Brian is referring to the account at Luke 22:44 "But getting into an agony he continued praying more earnestly, and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground." Luke being the physician is the only one to mention this detail
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
Good point Jay, but it is obvious from Luke's account (in all of the three translations I checked it in) that he is referring to sweat, not blood.
Incidentally (and returning to the original topic of the thread) mention was made by Luca of the Italic cohort being the one to carry out the crucifixion. In fact the unit which carried it out is not named in the gospels. It may have been the Italic cohort but this was only one of five (or possibly six if the Italic cohort was supernumerary to the five Samarian cohorts and one ala we otherwise know of) cohorts in Judea so it could equally have been one of the others. The 'Italic cohort' is not specifically mentioned in the gospels. It is mentioned in Acts 10 and the event is clearly later then the crucifixion anyway. The Book of Acts also tells us that the Italic cohort was based in Caesarea, rather than Jerusalem, although it is conceivable that men of that unit might have accompanied Pilate as escort troops during his journey to Jerusalem for the Passover celebrations.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
I think the point is that medically it is possible to "sweat blood" as Brian said under extreme stress. After all Jesus quite literally had the weight of the world on his shoulders. After reading the verse again in several translations I'm not sure how "his sweat became as drops of blood" could be viewed as anything else but sweating blood. Either way it goes to show the pressure he was under. It was a horrific ordeal.
Just a quick search found this:
Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Chief Medical Examiner of Rockland County, New York) it is well-known, and there have been many cases of it. The clinical term is “hematohidrosis.” “Around the sweat glands, there are multiple blood vessels in a net-like form.” Under the pressure of great stress the vessels constrict. Then as the anxiety passes “the blood vessels dilate to the point of rupture. The blood goes into the sweat glands.” As the sweat glands are producing a lot of sweat, it pushes the blood to the surface - coming out as droplets of blood mixed with sweat.
As for the Italic cohort Acts 10:1 Cornelius of the "Italian band" and Acts 27:1 where they hand Paul over to Julius of the "band of Augustus". As mentioned these are much later events.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"
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