The AD33 crucifixion detail in Judea

[M. Demetrius]

John 19:29, NASV says, "A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon [a branch of] hyssop, and brought it up to His mouth."
http://www.bibleshark.com/bible/NASB/John/19/29/

Greek and King James says, "?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ????????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ?? ???????"
"Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth."
http://greek.scripturetext.com/john/19-29.htm

New International Version says, "A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

The Latin Vulgate says, "vas ergo positum erat aceto plenum illi autem spongiam plenam aceto hysopo circumponentes obtulerunt ori eius", their translation is, "Now there was a vessel set there, full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar about hyssop, put it to his mouth."
http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=4&c=19

It looks more to me like it was just a sponge that they tied or otherwise attached to a piece of hyssop on the spot, not a latrine sponge. As to how much or if ever the sponge had been rinsed, whether it was new, or why it was up there, it doesn't say. I guess anyone can read into the passage whatever they want, for whatever reason.

[Matthew Amt]

A crucifixion victim is not necessarily "high up"--it's easiest to have the crossbeam at shoulder level and simply stand the guy against it to start nailing. ("Hold still, this is going to hurt!") In that case you can hold a cup or patera up to his lips very easily.

I really think the sponge is assumed to be a toilet sponge--what other uses would it have, especially on a hillside outside the city? It didn't grow out there, so someone took it out there for a reason. It wasn't just for drinking wine out of--they would have taken a CUP for that. There were even stock characters in ancient comedy plays named "Sponge", and the implication of the toilet sponge seems clear. I believe sponges did have various uses back then (even helmet lining, if I'm remembering correctly?), but while today people hear "sponge" and think of a flat blue or pink rectangle under the kitchen sink, in Roman times it's really looking like people heard "sponge" and thought "butt wipe".

Occam's Razor, or in this case Occam's Sponge: The simplest and most likely expanation for each bit of evidence adds up to a toilet sponge being used to give Jesus a drink.

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

I won't press the argument, but Occam's razor could say that the benefit of the doubt would go with the document, not what we think the people there would have done. In each Bible version below it says they fastened the sponge onto a hyssop stick. A toilet sponge would be already fastened ahead of time, wouldn't it? It would be easier for a crucified man to suck water from a sponge than to drink from a cup in the awkward body position, I'd think. I've never been actually crucified, though there are a few who would be willing to take care of that....

I agree about the low cross, Matt. The mechanics of putting a body up on a ten foot pole (stresses against the upright, etc.) and the amazing difficulty of raising the weight up that high just makes no sense to me. Climb a ladder to break their legs to end the event or to use the spear in the side? Naah. It's also possible they would nail the victim on the crossbeam (patibulum) on the ground and then fasten that to the upright, or so I've read, without actually having to lift the body up off the ground at all. Feet last, with knees bent, so as to put the body weight back on the nails at the wrist.

Crucifixion would be no fun.

[Tarbicus]

the 'Hissop'(?IIRC) would have been the only thing to hand to get the liquid to the mouth of a man high up who couldn't use his hands.....and the sponge had doubtless been rinsed clean for re-use, and the possibility of infection was hardly an issue! Therefore still conceivably a kindness.....

Makes you wonder if that was an everyday way of keeping the sponge disinfected. The Roman military was very health and hygiene conscious.

[Robert Vermaat]

One did not need to nail a victim to a cross, using ropes was also sufficient, because the victim was supposed to die of thirst and/or exposure, I think?
One hears also of germanic tribes that crucified Roman prisoners - surely they'd not waste precious iron nails on such an execution.

Anyway, regardless of the origin of the sponge, giving a crucified person a drink seems to be contrary to the purpose of crucifixion and therefore it seems to me an act of kindness. Just my opinion of course.

[Paullus Scipio]

One did not need to nail a victim to a cross, using ropes was also sufficient, because the victim was supposed to die of third and/or exposure, I think?

....You are right, and paradoxically 'nailing' to a cross was considered a sign of mercy, for the shock and bleeding meant a relatively quick death, as opposed to the more lingering version of being tied....

[Epictetus]

Jona Lendering\\n[quote]There were at least eight types of messianology back than, but to Caiaphas and Pilate all signs suggested that Jesus was one of the "Davidic" type: restoration of Israel by violent expulsion of the Romans. quote]

I think this "messianology" is interesting. Can you recommend anything to read about this, Jona?

[Sean Manning]

My understanding is that victims of crucifixion probably died quickest of suffocation and heart failure. Apparently the strong pressure across the chest makes it hard to breathe, as with the torture of tying someone's hands behind their back then lifting them off the ground by their wrists. The use of nails rather than rope was just extra sadism. Still, I imagine that medical knowledge of crucifixion is rather theoretical these days ...

[M. Demetrius]

It stretches the chest muscles and the diaphragm, making it harder to exhale. Eventually, the muscle fatigue causes suffocation. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun. :|

[Matthew Amt]

A couple years ago I dug up 2 or 3 articles on crucifixion from medical journals (I work in a medical library!), and they all disagreed on the actual cause of death. As I recall, possibilities included blood loss, shock, suffocation, congestive heart failure, and just Having a Really Bad Day. It is notable that the legs of the two thieves were broken to speed their deaths, which suggests that suffocation was a factor. With unbroken legs, the victim can push up to relieve strain on his arms and chest to get a breath, but that hurts the nailed heels, so he sags again, but that hurts the arms and he can't breath well, so he pushes up again, but that hurts the heels, etc., etc., up, down, up, down... All of that is going to exacerbate bleeding and exhaustion, of course, not to mention pain. But up walks a soldier, and he just pushes the victim's knees sideways until pressure against the upright causes something to break, either tibia and fibula, or femur, or all three, and no more pushing up to get a breath.

This is easily one of the most sadistically ingenious ways to torture someone to death ever devised.

Happy New Year!

Matthew

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

OK here is an example from the classroom...

Stand up and stretch your arms wide and make sure your hands are a little above your shoulder, palms open, directed to front.
Bend your knees while still keeping your arms stretched.
Then turn both knees to one side, left or right, does not matter.

Stand like that for 2 minutes.. multiply the agonising pain you start feeling in all of your muscles times 100, excluding the imaginative excruciating pain of the nails being driven through wrists and heel bones/ankles (at some very painful nerve crossings)..

and bob' s your uncle...

M.VIB.M.

[Urselius]

When the spear was thrust into Christ's side, blood and "water" flowed out. The lungs were also filling with tissue fluid, and a form of 'auto-drowning' was also a contributary factor in eventual death.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Though they have a lot of it wrong, it is still good to see that even in the Netherlands the passion players put in an effort!

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/1874365.jpg



M.VIB.M.

[G.Pub.Britannicus]

Vinegar is often used as a cleaner/disinfectant. Perhaps the "jar of vinegar" WASN'T for drinking, but there to clean & store latrine sponges? They knew that they woukd be there a while, & probably not everyone had all of their gear with them, so two or three communal sponges in a jar of vinegar might have been a practical solution.

Also, as for the hyssop branch. The stick of a latrine sponge is not terribly long, so the whole thing may have been tied to an available branch to extend it enough to reach His mouth.

[M. Demetrius]

It could be just like you say, Howard, though a latrine dug on top of a rocky hill is not that likely. Remember that Roman soldiers used vinegar water, i]posca[/i]--that vinegar usually being soured wine--in their canteens. Using vinegar as the antimicrobial that it is would help to purify river or pond water and make it drinkable. So in one Gospel it says "sour wine". And sponges had other uses besides the latrine. But it could be like you say. The myrrh mentioned in one gospel in the water makes me think it was drinking water, as myrrh was considered a good flavor. I don't like it much, but that's just me.

I wonder why hyssop is mentioned directly. Surely there were other kinds of sticks.

Also, in spite of the Renaissance art, the crucifixion victim wasn't 10 feet up in the air. More likely, his eyes would be near eye level to a man standing nearby. Leg breaking, as Matt says, would make it impossible to push up, no matter how much a person might want to do so. And they had a large hammer up there for driving spikes, so the tool was readily available.