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OK, heres a more scientific term for them.....Rivet Stress Transferance Depletors! That just rolls off the tounge too when turned into an acronym! :wink:
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Byron Angel
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Byron.
I would like very much to agree with you and I do see your point, infact up to now you are the only one who has put forward any other reasonable name for these things.
I do understand that the porpose of RAT is to discuss matters concerning history and these bellcaps are indeed artifacts that come to us from history, what I would like to know can anyone who might object to the name of these things kindly explain just who coined the terms Locket...Chape..etc...etc...etc. that they might appear to be happy with.
Indeed at one stage in this hair splitting discussion Matt has refered to these objects being washers, in that case should we wish to become so precise and scientific the dictionary definition of a washer is that it is a flat object.
I would like to reiterate yet again that for many decades now the terminology used by Archaeologists has been bellcap, it may have something to do with the fact that they are shaped like a bell but then have a countersink hole in them.
It is the countersink hole which then makes them a very scientifically engineered innovation used for fitting plates to belts and other objects to leather, indeed Byron by possibly being something of a "Stress Transference Depletor" but then the more simple name bellcap is enough of a mouthfull I would think.
Brian Stobbs
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There is a modern washer that is made somewhat similarly, and serves a similar function. They are called finishing washers. Although they are not used with rivets these days typically (though they could be), they are used with pan-head screws, and for the same reasons the Romans used the bell caps. They are more decorative, and do not damage the materials that come into contact with them. Sometimes you see them in older model cars in the place where the door panels attach to the metal structure of the door.
In no way, historians, does that imply that there is a specific connection between the two objects, put down your pens. It also does not validate or invalidate the use of any particular terminology concerning the new or old versions of this article of hardware. It does, however, indicate that as Frank Lloyd Wright is said to have written, "Form follows function."
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(David Wills)
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David, spot on.
BTW, Byron, a scientific name does not have to be ridiculously long and cumbersome. It can be short and to the point like the one I had mentioned.
Anyway, I'm done with this thread.
Excellent tutorial Jurgen. I will use one of these for some future rivet work I have in mind.
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Paolo
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If only they had finishing washers the right size in brass....
*(edited in) GASP! http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/in ... t_1_4_last Well, whaddya know???  hock:
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Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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Byron Angel
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When they're installed, they look kind of like a pierced dome. But in the US, we call them "Pop Rivets". So there's the nomenclature thing again. :wink: :lol:
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Sorry if this was posted already, but i'm on the run here...but I'm pretty sure you can buy these bell caps at most hardware stores no?
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@MODs: can anyone split up the nomenclature issue from the tutorial. I feel it is better to do that, so people actually see the tutorial, what this was all about instead of an nomenclature fight.
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Jurjen
I would second that request very much so.
Brian Stobbs
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Magnus.
In answer to your post I would think not for what you mention may well be similar to those that David has shown and these appear to have the countersink already down at the dome edge level.
Therefore this countersink is already touching the leather of the belt before any peening begins, where as the ones that Jurjen shows in his production the inner edge of the countersink in most cases is just a bit above the bottom edge of these domes.
It may well be only 1mm or 1.5mm above it but this is part of the function of these things where the dome gives as the very gentle peening begins, in most cases the edge of the countersink just reaches the leather when the work of this gentle peening is finished.
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These are generally available in chrome plated steel at most hardware and do it yourself stores.
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(David Wills)
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lol...yeah those are the ones I meant Dave. I think you can also get them in brass, or at least some kind of brass plating.
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Brian, you're erroneously presuming everybody with a viewpoint would post here- I have private conversations too LOL And it's irrlevant how long or whom uses the term- thus far, no real good reason to use it has been presented. Lots of 'I like it', 'others use it for centuries' and such but none of those is reasonable. Is there one proper reason to use the term bell cap for a donut washer? Just one? What I showed a picture of is very different to the washer- it is a bell cap, but it's a bell and it's a cap LOL It's quite different and thus, as I've already said, it makes no sense to use the same term for both.
And Brian are you suggesting that the artifact versions, which we still haven't seen, are different than the modern version? Jurjen's reconstruction's centre goes right to the plane of the outer rim- but it's like I said way back, it's not good to judge anything by a recreation when we're unaware of the actual appearance of the real thing.
And why separate the how to from the nomenclature discussion? The title of the how to is the thing in contention, and leaving that apart from the discussion will make it seem like an acceptable term for the piece, when clearly it's not so much...
To be honest, I'm tiring of the non-debate anyway- I've said my piece about it not being either a bell or a cap and not fitting the definition, and there being a modern version that seems the same with a real name, with no counter, nothing's moving from the original positions. I'm always going to see this as a washer, if others want to call it a bell cap, have at 'er :roll: If anyone has an actual argument for the term, PLEASE present it as if it does work for some reason I can't fathom, I'd love to know. And if there's more evidence for it being proper to use beyond one belt mentioned, that'd be useful to know too. It'd be a mistake to consider it proper to use commonly unless there's support for that.
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Matt.
It becomes clear from a statement you have made in your previous post that you do not understand the porpose or the function of these bell-caps. Then where you mention the artifacts that you have not seen yet, it becomes clear that you did not take too much notice at all of the pictures put forward by Jurjen at the beginning of his topic.
In my opinion it becomes clear that you are not too familiar with the Vindolanda or the Trimontium horse chamfrons where this term has been used, I first of all gave the reference given by Carol van Driel Murry now I shall give the actual statement.
Quote. "The large studs and attachments were securly bell-capped at the back, presumably for the comfort of the horse. Several of these caps remain on chamfrons I and III, in place still holding the leather together ( fig 2d ). The metal of the bell-caps has caused extensive staining of the outer surface of III, and they are so firmly hammered on that the impressions are visible on the inner lining too." Unquote
I wonder now would you dispute this matter about her terminology or are you prepared to be more polite and contact this lady to do so.?
Then where you say that the reconstruction made by Jurjen has it's countersink at the same plane as the outer rim I would ask not just youself but all who have followed this topic to go back and look at it again please, for indeed it begins to appear that you are not just disputing the terminology and nomenclature you wish also to dispute any other technical discussion whatever.
Then also where you say you are tiring of this so called non- debate you should please let it go and allow Jurjen to have time to carry on with his "How to" instead of him having to waste his time.
Brian Stobbs
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