Re: Bell cap how to

[Matt Lukes]

Bell cap seems pretty good to me.

See the helmet with the nick name Bicycle bell helmet?
I suppose you could call it the big mushroom washer helmet, but dosn't have the same ring to it.
The need to coin a term seems to be a human trait, and as we will never know what the Romans called them, why not go with what the guy who actually brought it to our attention call's it!
That is my only point here, and possibly all I have to say on the matter! Now I'm away to cherche la chiene and kick it!

hock: But Byron, that's exactly what I just pointed out is a serious academic mistake- the source is irrelevant, only the facts matter. By your logic I could be the first to bring attention to a rivet with a nipple in the centre call it a 'monkey ass' washer and everyone should accept it should be the title LOL Did you know there was a term 'bell cap' referring to anything else?

The criticism and discussion are not of those using the term, it's simply about the term itself. So appeals to source are misplaced, nor is any criticism of those using the term even implied, so they need no defense. This form of washer is not a bell nor is it a cap- how then calling it both seem pretty good? I don't get it. Especially since this form of washer has been in modern use for a long time and has a name- doesn't that make rather more sense to use if the actual name is unknown?

And really since the piece I posted does fit perfectly with the real definition and the implied structure of a bell cap, that should seal the matter since you can't have two very different things with the same name and have any semblance of clarity... no?

[jvrjenivs]

hock: Um, that's exactly what I just pointed out is a serious academic mistake- the source is irrelevant, only the facts matter. By your logic I could be the first to bring attention to a rivet with a nipple in the centre call it a 'monkey ass' washer and everyone should accept it should be the title LOL Did you know there was a term 'bell cap' referring to anything else? The criticism and discussion are not of those using the term, it's simply about the term itself. So appeals to source are misplaced. This form of washer is not a bell nor is it a cap- how then can it seem pretty good? I don't get it...

I totally agree with you here, Matt. But as the majority of people who worked with these 'monkey ass' washers ( ) know them as bell caps most of the people who asked for this tutorial, recognise that term associated with them, even when you're right stating it isn't exactly the right term. So we need a proper term for them. I wouldn't op for 'monkey ass washers', although I like that name. Maybe in the future we can refer to them as 'doom washers'. Don't know, at least I think the craftmanship and usability of these things should be more important.

[PhilusEstilius]

Where van Driel Murry uses this term as well as many other Archaeologists I think may be from the fact that many actual Roman Bells are hollow dome shaped objects, and these particular items in question which happen to have a countersink hole in the top do cap a rivet or a stud on many types of objects fitted to leather.

Therefore for many decades now they have been considered as Bellcaps, but then there are many who tend not to understand the true function of them.

It was not until I began to create and use these things that I became very aware of there true nature, and it has to be agreed that they are indeed a wonderfull piece of engineering innovation.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A bell is a dome...a bicycle bell is a dome, with a fastener through the top of the dome, secureing it to it's mount....so I see no winning argument not to call it a 'bell-cap'.
It has a ring to it.....

[Doc]

I agree that the point of the topic is to discuss the usefulness of this very clever gizmo. However, having said that, the shape that has been presented in the reconstruction can hardly be called a bell which is usually dome shaped.

The Pantheon has a dome with a hole in it and it looks nothing like that washer on this forum. The reconstructed picture is a washer that looks like a half donut. The counter sunk hole from what I can see, houses the rivet once it has been peened. The peened portion closes the hole and forms the remaining dome shape. Thus it is not the actual "washer" that is a dome rather the end product.

Domed cap would see like a more appropiate name

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Bell cap is great, I don't see why it needs to be changed.

[jvrjenivs]

Bell cap is great, I don't see why it needs to be changed.

Because some of use seems to act scientifically and then the term Bell Cap seems inappropriate. That doesn't mean you have to change the what you call them though.

And again I hope to tell another message. This topic is to help people make these little handy things to use on their gear, not to scientifically give a name to them. So, let call them what you want. Here on RAT bell cap seems to be good, scientifically it isn't.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Exactly my point. Glad we can agree on something.

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

I've noticed that on some of the pugiones in which the enamel has deteriorated from within the decorative rivets, leaving only the metal hardware behind, the housing for the enamel is very similar in some ways to the open-centered, convex washers we are discussing in this thread.

[attachment=0:3qm1iyy2]<!-- ia0 Pugio-Type-Washers.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3qm1iyy2]

As a side note, I think the example above is actually good evidence for not going with the method I had previously posted in the pugio thread here: link from old RAT.

--Kelsey

[PhilusEstilius]

I do not think we can compare the bellcaps under discussion to the decorative cups found on the pugio rivets, for these are simply cups with a hole in there center and are there on the pugio as a cosmetic device.

The bellcap has it's hole punched from the outside top of the dome which creates a countersink that has a definate engineering function to it, they were made this way to greatly reduce the amount of riveting poundage when a rivet is peened down.

[Matt Lukes]

Well no, here on RAT 'bell cap' isn't good because many of us feel it's quite wrong LOL Terminology is pretty important for any subject simply for understanding just what one is referring to, and really because there's no contesting Jurjen's method of making them and the usefulness is apparent- although perhaps not their commonness- it's only the nomenclature that's really in question, no? Or was there more you wanted or expected to talk about with respect to the production of these washers Jurjen?

One thing I've wondered about their function though- being sheet metal, the formation leaves an edge facing down, meaning one creates a good cutting surface if enough force is applied- it is therefore necessary to be careful not to peen the rivets too much or risk the washer cutting into the belt, no?

[jvrjenivs]

Hi Matt,

I've to admit I understand your view on the nomenclature matter, but when I was referring to 'RAT' I was not only reffering to this topic but more to its members. We've had many interesting hours talking about these during some events last year. So, most members who knew the divice (as they saw it on my belt, or those by Brian or others, knew it by that name already.

You are right that it could leave a sharp edge, but with some experience you can make them without much burrings. And remember their use also reduce the force you need to apply greatly. At least I never had any problem with this.

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

I must have pugios on the brain :oops:

[PhilusEstilius]

Matt. I cannot agree where you say that here on RAT bellcap is not good and that many feel it is quite wrong, for in this particular post I cannot see the many who have made any objection to this name other than yourself.

I have myself given reference where over the past two to three decades Archaeologists have been useing this particular name for these objects. Indeed you yourself have put forward a picture of a one that is listed as being a bellcap in your picture title so why is there such a problem about the name.

[Doc]

I have to agree with Matt that one of the main purposes of RAT is to promote accuracy in the science, appearence, and anything that goes with those things. So calling a monkey a chimp because they look similar and are mamals is not good enough. However, we have to agree to disagree. Not everyone is going to agree with the term used. To me a washer void of a dome is not a cap, period. Some of you say because an archaelogist said it then it must be sacred, ok. Lets just enjoy what Jurgen has done and try to find some use of these washers, caps whatever, in our projects.

BTW, scientists and archaelogists are not always correct in their descriptions or the way they name things. In Organic Chemistry, nomenclature has changes several times because of some confusion caused by akward naming. Better terms lead to better description.