Balteus: protective lining over sharp washer edges

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Quick question for the group... after constructing my balteus, I'm concerned about the sharp edges of the washers on the inside. I cut them square from brass and some of the points I fear will unnecessarily scratch the segmentata, or tear at the tunic when no armor is worn.

I haven't come across this issue using the search function, and all those commercially available appear to leave the rivet+washer exposed. Could be they use thicker material filed smooth, or just have simply done a cleaner riveting job than mine. :wink:

In practice, have any of you faced a problem with this, and if so would it be practical to apply a lining layer of linen or leather?

Replies are most appreciated

--Kelsey

[caiusbeerquitius]

All necessary info in the link below. Your washers should be round, and have an other feature described by Brian Stobbs:
link from old RAT

[jvrjenivs]

And that is also why you see many groups wear a fabric belt under their cingulum. To protect the real clothing. Anyway, I have now made over 1000 of bell caps I think and I must say I'm quite happy with them. They work fine in protecting your gear from sharp edges, and also make peening the rivets more easily (less force is needed, which make you can do a more delicate job). Hope Brian his explanation in the refered topic makes it all clear, otherwise I will do a photo tutorial shortly. Just let me know if that's needed.

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Thanks for the link! Yes, now I see how the bell caps would have been a better way to go. Too bad the belt is already put together, since undoing rivets isn't exactly easy.

The fabric belt underneath the balteus - some kind of fascia I suppose - I haven't seen that in any of the sculptural evidence, but I may not have known what to look for either.

[Correction: having done a bit more research I think you're referring to the 'fascia ventralis', which is depicted here: http://www.legioxi.ch/texte/uu_bekl.htm ...is that correct?]

--Kelsey

[sulla felix]

And that is also why you see many groups wear a fabric belt under their cingulum. To protect the real clothing. Anyway, I have now made over 1000 of bell caps I think and I must say I'm quite happy with them. They work fine in protecting your gear from sharp edges, and also make peening the rivets more easily (less force is needed, which make you can do a more delicate job). Hope Brian his explanation in the refered topic makes it all clear, otherwise I will do a photo tutorial shortly. Just let me know if that's needed.

I'd like to see that tutorial please

[jvrjenivs]

The fabric belt underneath the balteus - some kind of fascia I suppose - I haven't seen that in any of the sculptural evidence, but I may not have known what to look for either.

[Correction: having done a bit more research I think you're referring to the 'fascia ventralis', which is depicted here: http://www.legioxi.ch/texte/uu_bekl.htm ...is that correct?]

Yeas, that was what I ment.

I'd like to see that tutorial please

Okay, will see if I can do that this weekend.

[M. Demetrius]

I'm concerned about the sharp edges of the washers on the inside. I cut them square from brass and some of the points I fear will unnecessarily scratch the segmentata

It's unlikely that brass or other copper alloys will scratch steel. They may, however, put a mark on the segmentata bands where they contact, but it will be a surface deposit of the softer metal, which should be pretty easy to remove, if desired.

In practice, have any of you faced a problem with this, and if so would it be practical to apply a lining layer of linen or leather?

I've had reasonable success with the square rivets by just tapping any points that stick up above the rivet with a punch, thereby bending them back into the leather. When you peen the rivet, you can see if any of the corners stick up, and just tap them in with a flat punch. So far, mine have stayed bent. Adding a layer of lining leather has its own set of maintenance problems: if you glue it down, you'll repeatedly have to reglue areas, as the belt bends and unbends, the glue will probably work loose at some places, and the rivets will tend to keep the entire liner from being in contact with the belt leather. If you sew it, you have the problem of the plates getting in the way of the sewing.

I can't honestly say that I have a good grasp of the historical proofs for the proportions of round/square washers, or the numbers of single/double layer belts. There were, however, many hundreds of thousands of belts made in the course of the history of the Roman army, so there were surely many variations. Those bell caps look very attractive, and serve to solve the corner problem perfectly.

[caiusbeerquitius]

It's unlikely that brass or other copper alloys will scratch steel.

How comes? I made very different experiences.

[jvrjenivs]

I can't honestly say that I have a good grasp of the historical proofs for the proportions of round/square washers, or the numbers of single/double layer belts. There were, however, many hundreds of thousands of belts made in the course of the history of the Roman army, so there were surely many variations. Those bell caps look very attractive, and serve to solve the corner problem perfectly.

If you mean the construction I used for that belt in the linked topic, you're true. Most (if not all) references we have to layered belt are from later period. But this was about the bell cap. For that we can say they new it much earlier. If I'll do the tutorial on those thingies I'll see if I can dig up a pic of an original still holding a piece of (mineralized) leather to the decorative piece that was attached to that strap, which is early 2nd century. I know of example of earlier and later period.

Also, I would also say sharp edges on brass can scratch into any polished metal.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I think I have a picture of Brians original that I can give you, if I can find it Jurjen!

[jvrjenivs]

Thanks Byron. Already found the picture. As usually my previous windows PC has again crashed, so I'm currently getting all data over to my new MAC But not all is done, as my old PC seems to stop working at random moments, so I don't have all pictures ready, but have found the one of the Bell Caps. Hope to do some of the tutorial later today.

[caiusbeerquitius]

MACs rock! )

[jvrjenivs]

I'd like to see that tutorial please

And the tutorial is done: link from old RAT

[Crispvs]

Going back to original question about roves (square washers) and rivets damaging clothing, my own belt has roves, rather than round washers on the back and in twelve years of wearing it both with armour and unarmoured, I have never found the roves or rivets to have done any damage whatsoever. Has anyone else out there ever actually seen damage done to clothing by roves?
I have a strong suspicion that the idea that roves will damage clothing is little more than an unsubstantiated factoid.

Crispvs

[jvrjenivs]

Going back to original question about roves (square washers) and rivets damaging clothing, my own belt has roves, rather than round washers on the back and in twelve years of wearing it both with armour and unarmoured, I have never found the roves or rivets to have done any damage whatsoever. Has anyone else out there ever actually seen damage done to clothing by roves?
I have a strong suspicion that the idea that roves will damage clothing is little more than an unsubstantiated factoid.

Crispvs

Yes I've. 2 of my tunics have cuts in them, which are clearly made by my belt. But I've to say that was from my first belt with cruelly cut washers.