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Massagetean heavy cavalry in Gaugamela?
#16
hello gents,
On my blog I added several drawings/sketches regarding this very topic - the Massagetan heavy warrior - they are sketches in development - as Patryk aka Roxofarnes has graciously gave me a lot substantive commentaries and thus improvements will be coming http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
all comments are welcome Wink
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
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#17
Thanks a lot for posting the link to that article by Gorbunov - there are a lot of armour finds there which I've not heard of before. I am still dubious of the reconstructed forms of the cuirass, though, since it seems that only stray scales and plates have been found, and the overall form is largely arbitrary.

Quote:hello gents,
On my blog I added several drawings/sketches regarding this very topic - the Massagetan heavy warrior - they are sketches in development - as Patryk aka Roxofarnes has graciously gave me a lot substantive commentaries and thus improvements will be coming http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
all comments are welcome Wink

Very impressive drawings. Just a few comments re: the warrior on foot:

The helmet, sword, and sagaris are all too early for a warrior of the 4th c. BC. They are all types dating to the 6th-5th c. BC. The sagaris in the first picture (of the mounted man) is much more in line with examples of the 4th c. BC, while the swords from Chirik Rabat and Issyk are differently shaped than the one you have reproduced. The sagarises are also much too short - actual examples found show that they were quite long, around 80 cm or so, which would allow the horseman to effectively use them from horseback.

The evidence that we have for the composition of the cuirass (Chirik Rabat finds, the golden bracer from the Siberian Collection, the figures from Khalchayan, the coinage of the Indo-Saka kings) shows that the plates were the same size all over the cuirass, and not larger on the body than on the skirt. This evidence also points to the armoured collars being one single piece in this earlier period, and they were only later made of different plates or segments (as, for instance, is seen on the Orlat battle plaque).

I really like your depiction of the bashlyk being worn beneath the helmet and the sagaris being suspended from the belt - those are very neat details that a lot of people usually miss.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#18
Quote:Thanks a lot for posting the link to that article by Gorbunov - there are a lot of armour finds there which I've not heard of before. I am still dubious of the reconstructed forms of the cuirass, though, since it seems that only stray scales and plates have been found, and the overall form is largely arbitrary.
hello Ruben,
you welcome - I should say the same about your postings regarding the Kroi-Kylgan-Kala spearman. It would have been interesting to see these cuirasses reconstructed in metal or leather.


Quote:Very impressive drawings. Just a few comments re: the warrior on foot:

The helmet, sword, and sagaris are all too early for a warrior of the 4th c. BC. They are all types dating to the 6th-5th c. BC. The sagaris in the first picture (of the mounted man) is much more in line with examples of the 4th c. BC, while the swords from Chirik Rabat and Issyk are differently shaped than the one you have reproduced. The sagarises are also much too short - actual examples found show that they were quite long, around 80 cm or so, which would allow the horseman to effectively use them from horseback.

The evidence that we have for the composition of the cuirass (Chirik Rabat finds, the golden bracer from the Siberian Collection, the figures from Khalchayan, the coinage of the Indo-Saka kings) shows that the plates were the same size all over the cuirass, and not larger on the body than on the skirt. This evidence also points to the armoured collars being one single piece in this earlier period, and they were only later made of different plates or segments (as, for instance, is seen on the Orlat battle plaque).

I really like your depiction of the bashlyk being worn beneath the helmet and the sagaris being suspended from the belt - those are very neat details that a lot of people usually miss.
well,
first of all, thanks a lot for your kind words Smile
secondly, I would like to say that this is a kind of comment or reply that I am going to need the most so I can improve this picture.

.. and with your comment on the war hammer or war ax that is becoming so much easier. as per length of the war ax I was a bit taken by the Nikonorov's Bactria book and the klevetz in the illustration of Siparlises-Kushan duel therein ( I must admit I like these weapons a lot eg I want to depict the famous klevetz from the Treasure House of Old Nisa in my forthcoming Parthian rider). True that 'my' battle ax is of an earlier provenance, you are right. And the initial drawing had a different head.
As I am thinking about the length of this sagaris the image of High King attendant from Persepolis comes to my mind, I think king's sagaris was shorter, but then I think
Collar piece - I think we got it after Gorelik, who does show it a single piece, and I made it into segmented one, I have to check my detailed depiction - but then it would have to taller and protect the head as well?
I was tempted to draw it as collar of scales, I have a drawing of another nomad with a scales throat guard..
Cuirass needs improvement and there will be changes, I hope
well, I will keep you posted about the development and more changes, like I am going to add a fully saddled horse to the dismounted Saka.
By the way what do you think about the absence of a bow/gorytos?
ps
'Blood Meridian' is a mighty little piece of fiction Smile
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
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#19
Quote:well,
first of all, thanks a lot for your kind words Smile
secondly, I would like to say that this is a kind of comment or reply that I am going to need the most so I can improve this picture.

.. and with your comment on the war hammer or war ax that is becoming so much easier. as per length of the war ax I was a bit taken by the Nikonorov's Bactria book and the klevetz in the illustration of Siparlises-Kushan duel therein ( I must admit I like these weapons a lot eg I want to depict the famous klevetz from the Treasure House of Old Nisa in my forthcoming Parthian rider). True that 'my' battle ax is of an earlier provenance, you are right. And the initial drawing had a different head.
As I am thinking about the length of this sagaris the image of High King attendant from Persepolis comes to my mind, I think king's sagaris was shorter, but then I think

I would advise you not to draw on Nikonorov's reconstructions, as a lot of them are fairly poor and misinterpret much of what is found in the actual evidence. The evidence for the length of sagarises is thankfully fairly consistent throughout the history of its use in ancient Central Asia. Actual examples and depictions showing the full length of the shaft almost always show them around 80 cm in length - in other words, long enough for effective use from horseback. Since wood was much cheaper than metal, it was not all that difficult to make a long sagaris instead of a short one, whereas a sword would become much more expensive the longer it became.

Quote:Collar piece - I think we got it after Gorelik, who does show it a single piece, and I made it into segmented one, I have to check my detailed depiction - but then it would have to taller and protect the head as well?

The early collars were different than later ones, like those seen at Khalchayan or on the Orlat battle plaque. The early ones were roughly square in shape, with the front side - where the face was - missing, so that the collar "boxed in" the head, but the face was left exposed. Because of this, some of the collars found in Saka art are pretty high. On the gold bracer from the Siberian Collection, which is probably our single best source for such armour from the 4th-2nd c. BC, the collars (which, it should be noted, are only present on a few of the cuirasses) almost reach eye height, and the Taraz figurine shows this, too.

Quote:I was tempted to draw it as collar of scales, I have a drawing of another nomad with a scales throat guard..

Among the Central Asian nomads, the development of the collar made up of segments or plates only came later, probably around the 1st c. BC-1st c. AD (I believe the first solid evidence of this is on the coinage of the king Tanlismaidates). Earlier on, the armour is evidently much cruder than later, since the plates are larger and the collar is too, being made of a single piece, and evidently must have been somewhat awkward to move in, though the overall form is the same.

Quote:By the way what do you think about the absence of a bow/gorytos?

It was the norm for such early cataphracts to carry bows with them, as there are a few sources showing cataphracts with quivers or bows.

Quote:ps
'Blood Meridian' is a mighty little piece of fiction Smile

It sure is, and McCarthy is one of my favourite authors Smile .
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#20
hello Ruben,
as per Nikonorov's 'Bactria' - there is no other book on this scale so his book (two volumes ) are very useful - especially since he provides many drawings of actual artifacts and iconography - also I would think taken by our own Polish XVI_XVII century examples that war axes and war hammers varied in length, also the Native American mounted warrior used waraxes of various lengths, some to have been used as clubs others as throwing weapons. Also Frequent Barrows' silver vessel (IV century BC) with seated Scythians shows them with two different types of weapons - one is a longish ax and the other is shorter 'klevetz/ chekan. Also we cannot discount the rock art of the steppes - there are depictions of warriors fighting one another with war axes, and they are not long but usually short like the one in the Frequent Barrows, so perhaps there were back then different kinds of these weapons, of various lengths and armed heads.
But the one we have for this Massagetan is too short, got to correct that one too, especially as I found in the Solov'ev work a war ax that fits the period (page 78, drawing 74b) and is quite interesting.
as per collar - I got to work on it then Smile
As per crude armor - I am not so sure for the surviving examples of horn armor seem to be of fine workmanship - per Solov'ev. He also shows early Saka 'kataphraktoroi' of Sargat culture wearing scale coif/hood attached to the helmet and not collars as part of their rather elaborate horn and bone 'plate' armor. http://history.novosibdom.ru/files/u12/sibir_122.jpg
So perhaps there was no collar on the Massagetan warriors ?

ps
I also like messer McCarthy's writing Smile //www.frankmccarthy.com/">http://www.frankmccarthy.com/
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
<a class="postlink" href="http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/">http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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#21
Quote:hello Ruben,
as per Nikonorov's 'Bactria' - there is no other book on this scale so his book (two volumes ) are very useful - especially since he provides many drawings of actual artifacts and iconography -

Nikonorov's book is very good for his collection of information and drawings of Bactrian arms, armour, and iconographic sources, but his drawings and paintings reconstructing the appearance of warriors are very poor. By all means, follow his reproductions of artefacts, but I would not recommend that you draw on his reconstructions.

Quote:also I would think taken by our own Polish XVI_XVII century examples that war axes and war hammers varied in length, also the Native American mounted warrior used waraxes of various lengths, some to have been used as clubs others as throwing weapons. Also Frequent Barrows' silver vessel (IV century BC) with seated Scythians shows them with two different types of weapons - one is a longish ax and the other is shorter 'klevetz/ chekan. Also we cannot discount the rock art of the steppes - there are depictions of warriors fighting one another with war axes, and they are not long but usually short like the one in the Frequent Barrows, so perhaps there were back then different kinds of these weapons, of various lengths and armed heads.

Yes, among the western Scythians we have evidence for shorter sagarises or chekans, as well as evidence for the use of actual proper battle axes. And while there were significant similarities between the arms and armour of the various steppe peoples of the Scythian period, there were also many differences, and the evidence which we have for the Saka and neighbouring tribes shows that they used sagarises of a somewhat different style. They certainly could have had shorter examples, but all the evidence we have for them points to their using ones with longer shafts that terminate in a bulbous shape. The rock art which exists showing shorter sagarises in use is really much too crude to be of any value in even estimating lengths, since it is not uncommon for bows or arrows to be larger than men in such representations!

And in the case of the Massagetae at the time of your reconstruction, we have particularly good evidence from Pazyryk burials dating to the late 4th or early 3rd c. BC, which are much more closely related culturally to the Massagetae than the Royal Scythians on the Chastye vessel.

Quote:But the one we have for this Massagetan is too short, got to correct that one too, especially as I found in the Solov'ev work a war ax that fits the period (page 78, drawing 74b) and is quite interesting.
as per collar - I got to work on it then Smile

That axe, and the use of such bronze axes in general, is not a characteristic of the Saka, but of the warriors of the Tagar culture, as Solov'ev notes. Even if you wanted to match that type of axe up with a cataphract of the 4th-3rd c. BC, which would be pushing it since such axes disappeared at around the exact time that the first cataphracts appeared, we have no evidence for the use of such axes among the Saka or the Massagetae, only sagarises.

Quote:As per crude armor - I am not so sure for the surviving examples of horn armor seem to be of fine workmanship - per Solov'ev. He also shows early Saka 'kataphraktoroi' of Sargat culture wearing scale coif/hood attached to the helmet and not collars as part of their rather elaborate horn and bone 'plate' armor. http://history.novosibdom.ru/files/u12/sibir_122.jpg
So perhaps there was no collar on the Massagetan warriors ?

You are again conflating the evidence from different steppe cultures. The Pazyryk warriors of the Altai were fairly closely related to the Saka, but there were also regional differences, and one of those differences seems to have been in armour (though note that in that article that you posted from Gorbunov he reproduces only two examples of armour plates from Pazyryk contexts). What I meant by crude is not that the armour was of poor workmanship, but that the plates were much larger and seemingly more unwieldy on the earlier representations. As for his reconstruction of the Sargat cataphract - I am very intrigued by it, but at the same time very skeptical, since he is extremely fantastical in several other reconstructions. I am not familiar with the finds from Priirtysh'ya, but I would be very curious to see them, especially if they are finds of horse armour dating from the 5th-3rd c. BC, as he claims.

Nonetheless, that relates to warriors of the Sargat culture, not the Massagetae, and the evidence still stands that they commonly wore cuirasses with collars.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#22
czolem Ruben et al.,
pardonez moi for this long delay in answering your post, mea culpa.

firstly, I thank you Ruben for your kind remarks and pointing to broken chain of my reasoning, so to speak. With your remarks it does seem to flow more smoothly. Nikonorov I admire for his scholarship and the redrawn artifacts but the plates are what they are, a bit strange, yet they do contain useful information. As per Pazyryk the Altai rock drawings contain lots of sagaris action, and since they are the most direct evidence of sagaris in action by the nomads - blows to the head and shoulders etc (but not the only as the Achaemenid art shows sagaris being used ass well, in combat scenes) than I think we can somewhat safety infer they were used across the steppe in various forms i.e. shorter and longer, being the most useful mounted man weapon against armoured and unarmoured foe in hand to hand combat.
secondly, I reread this tread - and what I come to see from this reading is that the IV century BC Massagetan heavy mounted warrior might have had :
via Khumbuz-Tepe:
a bow slung from his belt or saddle, armoured leg protectors, horse flank armour, and perhaps armoured saddle
via Taraz:
high, single sheet collar, helmet, chest armour, and some sort of segmented hip and thighs armour that might have extended down his legs
via Chirik-Rabat:
iron, long sword, segmented arm and perhaps corselet armour, and carried a Saka style bow in bow case as evidenced by the iron arrow finds.
his corselet, wheather bone, horn or metal is a matter of choice?, can be similar to the ones reconstructed by Gorbunov
From elsewhere it can be deduced that he carried a longer lance or spear, horse whip and long handle sagaris . He perhaps carried a shorter sword or dagger strapped to his thigh.
Based on Pazyryk and other Siberian finds, from Scythian art but contrary to the later steppe practices, it can be deduced that he most likely wore a bashlyk cap/hat underneath his helmet.
In addition he might have carried his kantus hung on his shoulders before the battle and perpahs rolled behind him and thonged to his Saka ( horn pommel and cantle as found in Pazyryk or by the Chinese in the 'Uigurystan ') saddle.
What you think?
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
<a class="postlink" href="http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/">http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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#23
Quote:czolem Ruben et al.,
pardonez moi for this long delay in answering your post, mea culpa.

firstly, I thank you Ruben for your kind remarks and pointing to broken chain of my reasoning, so to speak. With your remarks it does seem to flow more smoothly. Nikonorov I admire for his scholarship and the redrawn artifacts but the plates are what they are, a bit strange, yet they do contain useful information. As per Pazyryk the Altai rock drawings contain lots of sagaris action, and since they are the most direct evidence of sagaris in action by the nomads - blows to the head and shoulders etc (but not the only as the Achaemenid art shows sagaris being used ass well, in combat scenes) than I think we can somewhat safety infer they were used across the steppe in various forms i.e. shorter and longer, being the most useful mounted man weapon against armoured and unarmoured foe in hand to hand combat.
secondly, I reread this tread - and what I come to see from this reading is that the IV century BC Massagetan heavy mounted warrior might have had :
via Khumbuz-Tepe:
a bow slung from his belt or saddle, armoured leg protectors, horse flank armour, and perhaps armoured saddle
via Taraz:
high, single sheet collar, helmet, chest armour, and some sort of segmented hip and thighs armour that might have extended down his legs
via Chirik-Rabat:
iron, long sword, segmented arm and perhaps corselet armour, and carried a Saka style bow in bow case as evidenced by the iron arrow finds.
his corselet, wheather bone, horn or metal is a matter of choice?, can be similar to the ones reconstructed by Gorbunov
From elsewhere it can be deduced that he carried a longer lance or spear, horse whip and long handle sagaris . He perhaps carried a shorter sword or dagger strapped to his thigh.
Based on Pazyryk and other Siberian finds, from Scythian art but contrary to the later steppe practices, it can be deduced that he most likely wore a bashlyk cap/hat underneath his helmet.
In addition he might have carried his kantus hung on his shoulders before the battle and perpahs rolled behind him and thonged to his Saka ( horn pommel and cantle as found in Pazyryk or by the Chinese in the 'Uigurystan ') saddle.
What you think?

Yes, that sounds very good. Just a few points: there is no evidence of "armoured saddles" in Central Asia - that was an Anatolian/Persian thing, and Nick Sekunda suggested in his Seleucid Army book that the Khumbuz-tepe fragment might show an armoured saddle, but it's pretty clear from comparative study that it's just an armoured skirt, like those seen on every other representation of Saka heavy cavalrymen. The gorytus was normally worn hung from the belt, as can be seen from several finds from the Altai which preserve the belt and the gorytus straps.

I don't know what you mean by differentiating "armoured leg protectors" and "segmented hip and thighs armour that might have extended down his legs," but the armoured skirt which is normally seen was just a continuation of the cuirass, and underneath were normally worn hooped leg protectors like on the arms.

I don't think finds of armour plates like those of Chirik Rabat have been found in bone, so I think that the main material, at least for the Massagetae, would have been iron. All Saka warriors would have carried a dagger strapped to the thigh - it was essential to the warrior, as it was used to scalp opponents (which cannot be done easily with a long sword or a sagaris). The Orlat battle plaque shows that warriors wearing heavy armour like this wore their daggers strapped to their legs under their armoured skirts. I kind of doubt that cataphracts would have worn the kandys over their armour, but when unarmoured they certainly would have.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#24
Ruben,
so now we seem to have arrived at this conclusion perhaps it is time I will try and draw 1 or 2 versions of this heavy Saka based on all of this above - I daresay it could be a fruitful closure of our discussion here?

...and as per kandys over armour , I drew this analogy from a later example where it seem that kandys was used as some sort of a rouse against the enemy - at Carrhae where the Surrena' Saka in Parthian vassalage were fighting the Crassus' Roman army there - and the Saka Parthian cavalry removed their kandys at the last moment to confuse the romans and dazzle them with their shinning armour.
pa ka..
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
<a class="postlink" href="http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/">http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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#25
Quote:Ruben,
so now we seem to have arrived at this conclusion perhaps it is time I will try and draw 1 or 2 versions of this heavy Saka based on all of this above - I daresay it could be a fruitful closure of our discussion here?

Absolutely, and I am very much looking forward to the results Smile .

Quote:...and as per kandys over armour , I drew this analogy from a later example where it seem that kandys was used as some sort of a rouse against the enemy - at Carrhae where the Surrena' Saka in Parthian vassalage were fighting the Crassus' Roman army there - and the Saka Parthian cavalry removed their kandys at the last moment to confuse the romans and dazzle them with their shinning armour.
pa ka..

There's not much evidence for the Saka wearing the kandys though (and I'm actually not sure that kandys is quite the right term - the Katanda "kandys" was pretty much just a mantle with very thin sleeves which must have been tied around the neck, and so is quite different from the Persian and Parthian kandys) and it doesn't seem to have been anywhere nearly as common as among Iranians.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#26
Quote:
Quote:...and as per kandys over armour , I drew this analogy from a later example where it seem that kandys was used as some sort of a rouse against the enemy - at Carrhae where the Surrena' Saka in Parthian vassalage were fighting the Crassus' Roman army there - and the Saka Parthian cavalry removed their kandys at the last moment to confuse the romans and dazzle them with their shinning armour.
pa ka..

There's not much evidence for the Saka wearing the kandys though (and I'm actually not sure that kandys is quite the right term - the Katanda "kandys" was pretty much just a mantle with very thin sleeves which must have been tied around the neck, and so is quite different from the Persian and Parthian kandys) and it doesn't seem to have been anywhere nearly as common as among Iranians.

well,
kandys was the Greek word as its Iranian name is kantus, I think.
I usually would say cantus' (kantush) and as such nomadic Iranian garment it was adopted by the Turkic people and via their influence entered Slavic men costume, terminating with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 18th (XVIII) century elaborate male garment known as kontusz as described in this not very good wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontusz
bachmat66 (Dariusz T. Wielec)
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