The Greek Battle Standard

[Ghostmojo]

I have always been curious at tantalising comments made about the Spartans in particular, taking some kind of totemic device before them on campaign. Whilst the classical Greeks didn't seem to have any need for unit battle standards - a subject well covered - in their hoplite phalanx units, I wonder whether they adopted them at any point? They must have come across plenty of opponents who utilised such emblems (Italian tribes/Romans/Carthaginians/Persians/Kelts etc.) over a period of time and perhaps ultimately found some kind of way of incorporating them - especially once we get into Hellenistic times and more state organised troops. Gone were the days of the old yeoman hoplite with his personalised shield maybe.

Back to the Spartans, who do seem to have carried representations of the Dioskouri before the king as they marched on their way. What this looked like is anybody's guess. The large hypothetical Dokana device often seen in illustrations would not have been easily transported around a battlefield.

Does anybody have any concrete views either way on this for a new discussion?

[Dutchhoplite]

Here's a little start:

link from old RAT

DH

[Ghostmojo]

Here's a little start:

link from old RAT

DH

Thanks for that DH 8)

My thread is mildly provocative of course :wink: . I was expecting a tirade of responses pointing out the basic fallacy of the premise!!! :lol: However, there is an issue there which needs exploring, certainly in the case of the Spartans who seemed to employ some sort of visual devices (even if for quasi-religious as well as military ([size=85:2j7isowz]hard to separate them in Sparta's case[/size]) purposes) long before the Hellenistic period. It's just a pity that no in-depth description exists (as far as I Know) of what this entailed (other than the Dokana).

The Dioskouri (??????????)of course were important in Sparta. The mythical twin brothers of Helen - Kastor and Polydeukes were sons of Zeus and protectors of the state. Symbols attached to them included intertwined snakes, stars, two horses, and of course the Dokana. They also seem to be connected with the Pilos hemet since they were often depicted wearing them (a reference to the egg from which they hatched). They also appear to have been connected to the shrine of Artemis Orthia. Unusually, they were never seen as rivals for power or privilege and usually worked in collaboration and consultation - possibly a metaphor for the Spartan dyarchy to emulate? They were also known as attackers of Messenia and one being mortal and the other immortal - the immortal chose to share his gift with his dead brother (apparently on alternate days).

They were also connected with the dual kingship and protectors of the Spartan army. The beam figure or Dokana was born in front of the army on campaign - but presumably not on the battlefield. They were believed to have invented the war dance and martial music to accompany it. The Spartans often swore by the twin gods and quite early on they became very popular and significant to the Romans in battle.

[Sean Manning]

Here's a little start:

link from old RAT

DH

Thanks for that DH 8)

My thread is mildly provocative of course :wink: . I was expecting a tirade of responses pointing out the basic fallacy of the premise!!! :lol: However, there is an issue there which needs exploring, certainly in the case of the Spartans who seemed to employ some sort of visual devices (even if for quasi-religious as well as military ([size=85:1vyln0cd]hard to separate them in Sparta's case[/size]) purposes) long before the Hellenistic period. It's just a pity that no in-depth description exists (as far as I Know) of what this entailed (other than the Dokana).

Do you have any of these references to images of the Dioscuri carried before the Spartan army handy? I've never heard of them and it sounds interesting.

Basically, the mainland Greeks and Macedonians adopted military standards of the square-thing-on-a-pole variety from the Persians after Alexander's death. Some later Roman vexilla were made in the same style (with the addition of discs and crescents on the pole). The argument should be published in Ancient Warfare magazine next December.

[hoplite14gr]

Please see PM.
Kind regards

[Ghostmojo]

Here's a little start:

link from old RAT

DH

Thanks for that DH 8)

My thread is mildly provocative of course :wink: . I was expecting a tirade of responses pointing out the basic fallacy of the premise!!! :lol: However, there is an issue there which needs exploring, certainly in the case of the Spartans who seemed to employ some sort of visual devices (even if for quasi-religious as well as military ([size=85:2g4lcyb6]hard to separate them in Sparta's case[/size]) purposes) long before the Hellenistic period. It's just a pity that no in-depth description exists (as far as I Know) of what this entailed (other than the Dokana).

Do you have any of these references to images of the Dioscuri carried before the Spartan army handy? I've never heard of them and it sounds interesting.

Basically, the mainland Greeks and Macedonians adopted military standards of the square-thing-on-a-pole variety from the Persians after Alexander's death. Some later Roman vexilla were made in the same style (with the addition of discs and crescents on the pole). The argument should be published in Ancient Warfare magazine next December.

I think perhaps Stefanos might have contacted you on that matter Sean (as he has me), but my information (for what it's worth) is drawn from a variety of written sources - no direct visuals unfortunately - all of which is fairly easily found within ancient sources. Most of the images we have of the Dioskouri have been obtained from far and wide as well as at Sparta. The Dioskouri (or Tyndaridai) were popular thoughtout Greece (and Rome). One view which I believe Stefanos supports (and makes perfect sense) and is prevailing; is that the shields themselves provided all the unit imagery that was required by the Greeks - certainly in classical times. The distinct lack of pottery or sculptural imagery depicting Greek heraldic devices on anything other than shields seems fairly conclusive. However, my own curiosity, as ever, is drawn by the differences of the Spartans to their fellow Hellenes. The representation of the Dioskouri may well have been on the aspis as well - but once the '?' lambda device was introduced as a state symbol I wonder how the twins would have been shown (if at all). The Dokana image has been found on a gravestone in Sparta. Sekunda speculates that this (presumably wooden) totem was carried before the army on the march. That is possible I suppose with two (or more) stout fellows shouldering the task (perhaps in relays).

I look forward to that A-W article.

[hoplite14gr]

If we take Xenophon Hellenik and Photios synopsis as the norm then the city monogram might have been ubiversal in the mid to late 4th century.
Yet we cannot exclude the posibiíty that the king's, general's, or perhaps a very ancient pristly family's symbol cease to exist stoped and to be carried by various armies. This would be an oversimplyfied view.

Sean is right about Dioscouri popularity. The cults of twins started from the Bronze Age if not earlier and many cities had twin heros as founders or hero cults (Amphion Zethos Thebes - Cleovis Viton Argos and do not forget Rome).
In Lesbos were Dioscouroi were considered patrons of mariners the twins appear on coins as calfs facing its other.
In Heiona they appeared as to stars sarrounded by an oakreath. In Taygetos there was found a plaque (now in Sparta Museum) showing two amforas with a lid.

Considering that there modern armies have units that carry unit symbols dated from the 14th century why is impossible for 4th century armies carrying Archaic symbols. Armies are beasts of tradition after all.

As for the "L" in Sparta is could probaly be used to hide the Homioi from Perioikoi destinction and the misisng/destroyed units of Pylos (Sphakteria)and Amyklae (Lechaeo) and the now extinct Skiritae (after Thebans detached the area from Laconia)

Kind regards

[Sean Manning]

I look forward to that A-W article.

I hope you enjoy it. Its mostly on Achaemenid standards, but as I was doing the research I realized that Hellenistic standards and Roman vexilla looked a lot like them.

[PMBardunias]

Its mostly on Achaemenid standards, but as I was doing the research I realized that Hellenistic standards and Roman vexilla looked a lot like them.

Are they all variations of the "shield on a stick" theme? It is my understanding that art framed by a "shield", perhaps called something like "tondos" if I recall, became popular in hellenistic times.

As to the twins, I'm too lazy to look up references at the moment, but some have suggested that their prevalence is because they are tied to the driver and warrior of chariot teams. Though duality is perhaps a fundamental aspect of our perception: light/dark, etc. There are many images of the twins from Taranto.

A very old paper that is worth a read in margaret Waites's "The Meaning of Dokana". Email me and I'll return it- don't PM me for it. She has many images of the Dioskuri.