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Which Byzantine inventions do we know (defining Byzantine as the period between 330 and 1453 AD)?
Out of the top of my head:
- Pendentive dome
- Grenade (liquid)
- Hand trebuchet
- Greek fire
- Flame-thrower
- Dromon
Possible inventions:
- University
- Combined arms tactics
- Arch dam
- Conterweight trebuchet
That is heavily tilted towards military aspects and leaves out all progress in arts and literature and so on. So what else?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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I won't go out of my element to explore all of these topics, but I will make notes on four: the hand trebuchet, the flame thrower, combined arms tactics, and the counterweight trebuchet.
The hand/human trebuchet may have been invented by the Byzantines or Chinese. Details are very sketchy and I am not smart enough to give you the truth. Consult "Byzantines, Avars and the Introduction of the Trebuchet" by Stephen McCotter; his bibliography is useful for primary documentation (Miracles of St. Demetrios and Theophylact Simocatta) as well as further discussion.
The flame thrower (flammenwerfer; huzzah for awesome German words!) is another tool invented apparently in the middle ages. Again, was it the Chinese or Byzantines? I apologize for my not having more citations on this topic, but I remember reading the earliest Chinese reference was sometime around 1000 AD, whereas there are sources for a Byzantine flame thrower in the 7th century (Patriarch Nikephoros and Theophanes).
Combined arms tactics were invented God-knows-when, but a good early example is the battle of Delion in 424 where Pagondas used a variety of troops. The Byzantines did use this, of course, but they did not invent it.
The counterweight trebuchet is another tricky bugger. See "The Invention of the Counterweight Trebuchet: A Study in Cultural Diffusion" by Paul E. Chevedden (this should be used in conjunction with McCotter's work). More or less, Chevedden's thesis runs thusly: the trebuchet was invented in China, improved in Byzantium and Middle East, and perfected in Western Europe. Yet again, I cannot give you the truth.
[Edit: If anyone finds contrary information, please provide it; these mysteries need solving!]
John Baker
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Nope, I am even more mentaly chalenged than you, but there was a documentary about these on , Ta dah...the Military History Channel not long ago.......surprise surprise!
It was quite interesting, but seemed to be going with the idea of the Chinese being the big inventors....
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Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Dromon was a type of bireme. Something known to ancients.
What makes Dromon a Byzantine invention?
Kinmd regards
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It's all the rage these days to say that China invented these things. I'm not all that impressed, and I'm fairly familiar with Chinese history. I suspect it has more to do with Chinese money in modern Hollywood, frankly.
China "ruled the seas" in 1432. Well--perhaps, but Vasco de Gama did it for real
China "invented gunpowder." Perhaps, but the harnessing of gunpowder as an efficient weapon?
Dismissing Byzantium is an old and time-honored game in the west, perfected by Gibbon--either the Byzantines are "decadent Romans" preserving a Classical heritage that they cannot better, or their eastern diffusers, good only for passing on the inventions of the Islamic and Chinese worlds.
I did my degree in Byzantium. They get my vote any day.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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Wrote a piece on the Dara Dam with the original passage by Procopius. The Glanum Dam in the Provence though precedes it, but it was obliterated in the 1890s, so that some scholars feel more comfortable with the fairly clear description by Procop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dara_Dam
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Quote:It's all the rage these days to say that China invented these things. I'm not all that impressed, and I'm fairly familiar with Chinese history.
Several of the inventions listed I know nothing about, but the trebuchet, surely, is clearly attested in Mozi - C4th BC or thereabouts.
Quote:China "invented gunpowder." Perhaps, but the harnessing of gunpowder as an efficient weapon?
Surviving Chinese handguns from Manchuria are datable to the late 13th century - that's earlier than any convincing evidence from elsewhere. Gunpowder bombs shot from trebuchets are clearly described in the 12th century.
Dismissing China is an old and time-honoured game in the west - though, admittedly, there is a powerful current of Sinocentric thought tending in the opposite direction as well. The evidence in the particular cases of trebuchets and gunpowder seems pretty strong.
cheers,
Duncan
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Just to give an idea where I am from: I am heavily leaning towards the perception that ancient Chinese technological achievements, in the wake of Needham's ground-breaking but biased work, are often greatly exaggerated. That is not say though that the Chinese did not make very important contributions but all too often development ceased at an early point before the full potential was exploited.
Quote:Several of the inventions listed I know nothing about, but the trebuchet, surely, is clearly attested in Mozi - C4th BC or thereabouts.
The trebuchet is a bit a case in point. There is no doubt that the manned trebuchet, that is with pulling crews, originated in China and was most likely diffused via the steppe people (Avars?) first to the Byzantines, then to the expanding realm of Islam and medieval Europe. BUT the really powerful artillery which could tear down walls, that is the hybrid trebuchet (powered by a combination of pullers and a counterweight) and above all the counterweight trebuchet were both invented far from China, in the Eastern Mediterranean between 700 and 1150 AD.
Interestingly, a renowned Muslim historian (Rashid al-Din) reports that the mightiest counterweight trebuchet, a Frankish design, was imported by Muslim engineers in Mongolian service to China where the design was unknown and was instrumental in the main sieges which sealed the fate of the Song dynasty in 1273:
Quote:Before that there had not been any large Frankish catapult in Cathay [i.e. China], but Talib, a catapult-maker from this land, had gone to Baalbek and Damascus, and his sons Abubakr, Ibrahim, and Muhammad, and his employees made seven large catapults and set out to conquer the city [Sayan Fu or Hsiang-yang fu = modern Xiangfan].
See: Chevedden, Paul E. (2000). "The Invention of the Counterweight Trebuchet:A Study in Cultural Diffusion (TEXT)". Dumbarton Oaks Papers, No. 54. pp. 72–116.
Quote:Surviving Chinese handguns from Manchuria are datable to the late 13th century - that's earlier than any convincing evidence from elsewhere. Gunpowder bombs shot from trebuchets are clearly described in the 12th century.
This particular 'evidence' has always bugged me because the find was dated by Joseph Needham on the superficial similarity with roughly contemporary European handguns to that date. But Needham, a trained chemist, was neither an archaeologist nor a sinologist. By modern scientific standards his dating was a joke just as his interpretation of an 11th century Buddhist cave carving of a wind bellows as a handgun. IMO his desire to inflate Chinese achievements and create 'firsts' was all too transparent and greatly detracts from his work which remains the basis of many sinocentric claims to this day.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Quote:The trebuchet is a bit a case in point. There is no doubt that the manned trebuchet, that is with pulling crews, originated in China and was most likely diffused via the steppe people (Avars?) first to the Byzantines, then to the expanding realm of Islam and medieval Europe. BUT the really powerful artillery which could tear down walls, that is the hybrid trebuchet (powered by a combination of pullers and a counterweight) and above all the counterweight trebuchet were both invented far from China, in the Eastern Mediterranean between 700 and 1150 AD.
Well if you'd said the hybrid trebuchet, and not the hand trebuchet, I wouldn't have argued!
Quote:Surviving Chinese handguns from Manchuria are datable to the late 13th century - that's earlier than any convincing evidence from elsewhere. Gunpowder bombs shot from trebuchets are clearly described in the 12th century.
Quote:This particular 'evidence' has always bugged me because the find was dated by Joseph Needham on the superficial similarity with roughly contemporary European handguns to that date.
I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. The gun was originally dated to 1288 by its Chinese excavators (not by Needham), because it was found in an apparently Yuan context (with a hoard of bronze objects of 12th-13th century style), and in an area where we have textual evidence in the Yuan shi for firearms being used in early 1288. Needham's main account of this find (pp.293-294 of the Gunpowder Epic volume of S&CiC) doesn't mention similarity with European handguns at all; so if he mentions it elsewhere it can only be as corroboration of the literary evidence and the archaeological context.
While Needham's work may be biased, it was a necessary corrective to the preceding couple of centuries of unrestrained Eurocentrism. It would be a shame to go back to that attitude.
cheers,
Duncan
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Quote:Well if you'd said the hybrid trebuchet, and not the hand trebuchet, I wouldn't have argued!
Sorry for not clarifying this, but the hand trebuchet in Chevedden's terminology is neither a crew-served nor a hybrid trebuchet, but a portable weapon!Basically a staff sling ( fustibale) mounted on a prod and working by lever action.
Quote:Chevedden, Paul E. (2000). "The Invention of the Counterweight Trebuchet:A Study in Cultural Diffusion (TEXT)". Dumbarton Oaks Papers, No. 54. p.110
The Byzantines were leaders and innovators in the field of artillery. The first Mediterranean civilization to utilize the trebuchet was Byzantium. The
Byzantines not only improved upon the artillery technology that they had acquired from Asia, but they also found new tactical uses for it. They adopted the “hand-trebuchet,” which they dubbed the cheiromangana, and employed this weapon in field battles.
Needham and Yates claim that the “hand-trebuchet” was invented by a Chinese military engineer named Liu Yung-Hsi in 1002 (Needham and Yates, Science and Civilisation in China, 5.6:214). Byzantine sources, however, mention the “hand-trebuchet” (cheiromangana) in the 10th century. The Praecepta militaria of the emperor Nikephoros II Phokas (963–969), dating from ca. 965, recommends the use of “handtrebuchets” in field battles to break up enemy formations. The Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos, dating from ca. 1000, also recommends the use of “hand-trebuchets” in field operations. The Anonymus De obsidione toleranda includes the “hand-trebuchet” in a list of artillery (ed. H. van den Berg [Leiden, 1947], 48, lines 3–4: tetrare´a", magganika` , kai` ta` " legome´na" hjlaka´ ta", kai` ceiroma´ggana . . . ). On the Byzantine cheiromangana, see McGeer, Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth, 21, 65, 97....An illustration in the Cantigas de Santa Maria, dating from ca. 1280, depicts a “hand-trebuchet” being operated alongside a counterweight trebuchet in the siege of a city.
Quote:Surviving Chinese handguns from Manchuria are datable to the late 13th century - that's earlier than any convincing evidence from elsewhere. Gunpowder bombs shot from trebuchets are clearly described in the 12th century.
Quote:This particular 'evidence' has always bugged me because the find was dated by Joseph Needham on the superficial similarity with roughly contemporary European handguns to that date.
I am talking about this vase-shaped Yuan handgun (I believe this is the speciman) which was dated AFAIK on the basis of this vase-shaped medieval handgun (pic no. 2). But the latter, medieval handgun was actually excavated before 1900 in an unspecified find context, which led scholarship to date it on the basis of Walter de Milemete 1326 depiction of a vase-shaped handgun (above, pic no.1)!
So, all in all, a pretty shaky basis for the Yuan dating. I am not an archaeologist, but I know first-hand from the case of horseshoes that heavy metal items tend to sink to lower strata of earth, thereby giving the item an older date than it actually is. And the Chinese hand-gun is heavier than even the biggest horseshoes. Until the dating of the Chinese handgun has not been verified by independent, post-Mao and non-PRC archaeologists, I don't consider it sufficient evidence to attribute the invention of cannon to the Chinese.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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