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Question about reenactors
#1
I was not sure about where to put this topic. Sorry if it's in wrong place.

As I don't know much about Greek (or Roman) reenactors, and what activities they have. I would like to ask is there a group that does something like this in their repertoire (actual combat reenactment [real weapons in movie clip below] etc etc )..It would be nice thing to see.

This is what I have in mind only these are medieval,

"SVIBOR" guys:

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/6136192/15937500

Thank you.

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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#2
I would say to take a look at the 'ancient combat sports' subforum.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#3
If by that you mean on-stage fencing then yes, we have started to do it this year. We a group primarily focused on the first third of the 15th century, from where we draw our close combat experience (not only on-stage scenic fencing, but also more dangerous interpretations of the Lichtenauer line fencing). Although the fighting style differs, it is possibly to build eye-pleasing duel choreography.

But to be perfectly honest, focusing on this sort of group combat represents more the fighting style of the archaic period of Greek history, where groups of variously organised warriors engaged each other; and much less the classical period, where the phalanx was used as the main fighting order. Although I cant deny that the concept of hoplomachia attracts me greatly.

Do we have any surviving material on hoplomachia other than that it existed?
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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#4
Except show and honor guards we do histoprical research in Ancient phalanx drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt5kpN8T8

or Pyrichios dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zo35C_1q9g
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#5
This is also a nice impression of Hoplomachia, yet I don't know how accurate it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjU6tSUp34
"Go and tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie." -Thermopylae

Peter
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#6
Thank you all for you time.

@jvrjenivs I saw some good gladiator video.

@ Lýsandros,that is what I meant. I myself see hoplomahia and phalangs as "styles" involved in every battle.There had to be some style involved once ranks broke.Second of two,although effective isn't much interesting to see (concerning style and technique), as maybe first one could be...

@ Stefanos
I see these for the first time. And as much as I disagree with some things reenactors do or propagate..I have only words of praise to dedication and exceptional effort you take to honor ancestors.Videos are great.

@Phalanx300 That is good video.That is something I had in mind.Full speed duel would be nice to see (like Brad Pitt and Bana from Troy,sorry I had to bring up awful Hollywood,I couldn't find better sample)

Thank you all

I must say that this kind of reenactment does not need to be life threatening, one of the guys from video I posted had a head injury from battle axe( 7 stitches and skull fracture) other nearly lost fingers on several occasions,and they state at the end blood is shed almost at every practice..Although I was impressed I can not encourage it.

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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#7
Our group does Gladiatorial Stage- and Free Fighting.
When we do stagefighting we do still fight freely but without trying to score a hit and we incorporate more stunts to provide a longer and more spectacular show for the crowd.
It seems thats how the guys in your posted vids fight also, as it doesnt look like fully choreographed stuntwork.

When doing true Free Fighting and triing to actually score a hit on the adversary, fights are much shorter and less spectacular.

Both styles are quite safe however as we fight with blunted weapons and train enough to know our adversaries moves and safty distance.

Some impressions of our recent fightshows you can find in my flickr gallery:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40060535@N05/

And here are some vids of a small free fight tourney during a training weekend that we had in Xanten this August:
http://www.youtube.com/user/pinki2482#p ... c5jcZJuZAA
The fighting place did not realy favor my Retiarius fighting style, but we could set up in the Amphitheatre as they had it prepared for a music festival during that weekend, so most hits I scored were with the left hand dagger in the unshielded side.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#8
Quote:This is also a nice impression of Hoplomachia, yet I don't know how accurate it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjU6tSUp34

This video covers the impressive style of fighting from Geometric Era (900 B.C.) to Early Archaic Era (670 B.C).
Some action do credit to Homeric descritpitons but most of them could not be effective against a solid wall of spearmen.

@ Polinik.
I do not know what other hoplite renactors do. In our group we strive for historical accuracy.
The parading is based on the Vix crater and the music on a fragment from Pyramos in Asia Minor.
The phalanx movent is based on Ancient literature and images. Yet it is constantly researched because the writers
left very few details. Even the Onesanders Stratgikon is lacking. It gives many commands but it does not explain how they were executed.
Only trial and error teach us things.

We still have NOT found a safe way to reanct true othismos. A computer model we used predicted lots of injuries if we seriously tried.
Any professional stundman's opinion would be apreciated.

Kind regards
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#9
Quote:
Phalanx300:1l003eab Wrote:This is also a nice impression of Hoplomachia, yet I don't know how accurate it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjU6tSUp34

This video covers the impressive style of fighting from Geometric Era (900 B.C.) to Early Archaic Era (670 B.C).
Some action do credit to Homeric descritpitons but most of them could not be effective against a solid wall of spearmen.

Does it mean I am wrong when I say that that archaic style could be used once(if) ranks broke or not?Was this style practiced at all after 670? Thanks.

Stefanos,I know that,of course.
Disagreement comes in some maybe less fundamental areas of your(meaning reenactors in general) work.Or better say disagreement with those who do not make a difference between history and history reenactment. I will explain soon.

@Olaf

Thank you for that information.You did put very good show.It is good you use blunted weapons,but still spikes from trident can hurt?Dangerous business after all,but a good show.

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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#10
Ok,I had to use new post.Sorry for that.

To explain my disagreement (though I did mention some of it in my very first post here on RAT).
Please try not to get me wrong,as I have great respect and admiration toward reenactment work.I wish a while now to see it live as well.

I understand reenactors(at least good ones) know very much about history which they are reenacting. I know they unfortunately depend almost entirely on budget,and many make their own gear(part I admire the most)...I know also it would be impossible to imitate skill of ancient artist and blacksmith who lived to make armor, whose works survived millennia.And nobody expects that after all.

And it is okay,I see no problem there...

...UNTIL:

People with responsibility for teaching history like Osprey,History channel,Explorer channel etc,and virtually every book existing start to see reenactors as absolute clones of ancient hoplites, and bring us illustrations that are clearly inspired by reenactors and modern sale replicas rather than museums and actual pieces...And while reenactors can not do better at this moment, artist on paper,directors on tv certainly can.BUT DON'T. And this virus, lets call it „modern hoplite“ catches many reenactment groups outside Greece.People who know a lot less history and facts than Stefanos and his group for example, but are probably seen by more people in bigger countries,start to believe themselves that they would blend in phalanx perfectly if some time machine transfered them in 500BC. And the virus spreads.It is to me a terrible thing.

In attachment I posted two examples of difference between ancient and modern,between history and fiction.Between way things were decorated in old times,and things are decorated today.How differently we understand something small as term „decoration“. That is how far we are from ancient world.

I can argue with you about „Spartan red“, alleged dreadlocks, between industrial and natural color, we can argue about difference in polishing today and 2500years ago....But I think we all agree that history is not the same as history reenacting.And that picture no 1 must not replace picture number 2.Ever.

Now you ask,what does it have to do with reenactors:

The disagreement comes because,even though they are not responsible for problem, apparently many reenactors will accept picture number 1 as truth...and I think they never should,especially Hellenes. I will cut off my right arm if someone convinces me that red/white checkered crest holder existed like depicted in picture.

Please say if I am wrong anywhere...This typing is killing me,huh...

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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#11
Double post, please see the one below :>
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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#12
While we can only speculate about colors used in the greek hoplite's panoply (due to the fact that most art is uncolored or using variations of black and red, black and yellow), red was a very cheap colour available to anyone. There is no reason to not accept a white/red checker box. The world of Ancient Greece was far from colorless, on the contrary - it was quiet the opposite! Ancient Greeks loved colours, both in their cilivian clothing, decorations or armor. Please do your research before lookind down upon the work of reenactors. Please, examine the following vase paintings, they will open your eyes in terms of patterns. This is just from a quick google search, but all images I have posted are actual remains from Ancient Greece.

The helmets you have posted are several hundred years older than some of those on the firrst picture and definitely belonged to a wealthy man. Helmet types and shapes varied between generations and so did the decoration.

[Image: gal_aow_chigi_vase.jpg]

[Image: hoplomachia.jpg]

[Image: 81947~Detail-of-a-Corinthian-Vase-Showin...osters.jpg]

This one is a bit bigger, just including a link:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Museum.jpg

That would be one arm, please Smile
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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#13
Quote: Please do your research before lookind down upon the work of reenactors.

The helmets you have posted are several hundred years older than some of those on the firrst picture and definitely belonged to a wealthy man. Helmet types and shapes varied between generations and so did the decoration.

Again I do not "look down upon the work of reenactors" !I am sorry you got that impression.

Secondly I dont think vase painting can be used as absolute refference as it is ART,mostly attic,and in many cases made centuries after events and people they depict...And of course It would be impossible for artist to paint anything else than few checkered dots or squares because of brush size,and painting size. If we looked only at artists,we would never know those fine reliefs on helmets,shields etc even existed. Just look at the all other pieces in museums,tools,jewelery etc..the relief decoration is impressive.That was simply how they saw things should be decorated.Paint could and did come,but not as the top class certainly.Not for a Spartan king,not for polemarhos, not for a proffesional soldier...

What painting depicts this in picture 2,and notice detail on pic 1(crest holder is no paint I am sure,as curiass decoration is not paint as well).

I know helmets are older,not geometric age certainly,of course style of decoration changed but I ask you do you really think art in making panoply downgraded that much in a century or two.How do you know did ancient artist depict paint or relief when you look at amphora for example.. YOU DON'T,WE DON'T KNOW!
But logic and experience tells me metal is carved to be decorated, not painted,at least in most cases.

And yes,painting expensive bronze as someone told me would not be the first choice for a soldier.And when I say all this I think of proffesional soldiers,not farmers.So affording or not affording something is not that big issue.

Arm is still here :wink:

Thank you for your time.

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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#14
So if I understand you right, you argue that the crestholders depicted in art might equaly depict embossed metall?

Though I am not an expert, I was of the impression that only helmets were metall (and thus were able to be embossed like your example above) while the actual crestholders are thought to have been made of wood or other perissable material.

I am not sure but I think most if not all greek helmets were found without without anything resembeling the crest holders that are almost universaly shown on vases.

Now you could still argue that the decorations wood be carved into wooden crestholders, but that would be just as hypothetical as paintig the designs.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#15
Quote:So if I understand you right, you argue that the crestholders depicted in art might equaly depict embossed metall?

Though I am not an expert, I was of the impression that only helmets were metall (and thus were able to be embossed like your example above) while the actual crestholders are thought to have been made of wood or other perissable material.

I am not sure but I think most if not all greek helmets were found without without anything resembeling the crest holders that are almost universaly shown on vases.

Now you could still argue that the decorations wood be carved into wooden crestholders, but that would be just as hypothetical as paintig the designs.

Good point.I never thought of holder as wooden,does not make any sense,it would shatter on impact,cause more problem than good...maybe someone more informed can help.

I argue not only for crest holders,it is fashion today to oversimplify. I can understand reenactors who depend on money,they do after all live in 21century and do not have 2500year old artist in group...I am furious with illustrators,directors,historians who do not realize that.

Thank you.
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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