leather cuirass

[M. Demetrius]

GJC said: A if it is leather (which I am not an adherant of the leather armour idea, btw) and
B if it is coloured leather

But if it is NOT leather, would it be painted metal if it were colored? If not metal, then what would it be? Anyone?

[caiusbeerquitius]

I would like to add an article here, which I think anyone interpreting Roman art for questions about displayed armour & weapons and their "actuality" etc. should have read, before making any statements about it:
G. Waurick, Untersuchungen zur historisierenden Rüstung in der römischen Kunst, in: Jahrbuch RGZM 30, 1983, 265-301, Tab. 37-62.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Arms and armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier, p.135 & 126 (pic. 157).
Here´s a picture from the flyer of the new exhibition in Bonn about M. Caelius´ tombstone ( [url:2b0hlftp]http://www.rlmb.lvr.de/ausstellungen/sonderausstellungen/[/url] ), showing what the tombstone originally looked like according to recent research.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Why the gold colour though?

[caiusbeerquitius]

Brass armour? Plumata? (or, of course, yellow-painted leather)

[Tim Edwards]

This must be the third or fourth such Rhineland stela I've seen reconstructed with a green tunic and red cloak.

See also D'Amato and Sumner Fig 302 page 213 for another example.

Apparently the appropriately named Silius of the Ala Piacentiana also bears this disturbing colour combo!

[caiusbeerquitius]

Silius:

Again I´d like to stress that the clothing colours must not necessarily show the actual colours worn by these guys. We have ample evidence that clothing colours were often used just for contrast, see e.g.:

M. Speidel, Eagle-Bearer and Trumpeter, in: Bonner Jahrbücher 176, p.123-163, esp. 124.

It would be also sort of weird to deduce Roman skin colour from some of these monuments. ^^

[Magnus]

Christian, the opposite holds true...one can just as easily determine in fact that the Romans may have used such combinations. I think to say that a green tunic + red cloak never existed would be a fallacy. Especially given the fact that other colours contrast better than green against red (blue and yellow spring to mind).

Oh, and just for a general FYI to anyone quoting sources...when you do so, but only list the author, title and page number, it doesn't really help anyone who doesn't have that book. Especially if it is in another language... I've been guilty of it in the past, but am going to try and avoid doing that now. Otherwise anyone can start tossing out references without any way to potentially verify the passage's relevance to a thread.

[Graham Sumner]

I´d like to stress that the clothing colours must not necessarily show the actual colours worn by these guys.

Or that the Museum reconstructions themselves are actually based on any evidence for surviving colours. We often assume that because they are in Museums then they must have been but I know for certain in at least one case, that the museum staff simply made the colours up! This then became 'evidence' for Roman tunic colours!

We have ample evidence that clothing colours were often used just for contrast, see e.g.:
M. Speidel, Eagle-Bearer and Trumpeter, in: Bonner Jahrbücher 176, p.123-163, esp. 124.

John Peter Wild has also stated that red can be used to outline figures on tombstones. Christian if there is "ample evidence" for colour as a contrast do you have other examples? Naturally I am very interested.

This must be the third or fourth such Rhineland stela I've seen reconstructed with a green tunic and red cloak.

See also D'Amato and Sumner Fig 302 page 213 for another example.

Plate VII in this book shows a reconstruction based on the Sillius tombstone but the green 'tunic' is represented here as a leather garment. H.Russell Robinson suggested they might be armour covers.

Although the figure in question is likely to be the attendant of Silius, not Silius himself, he wears much the same as other Auxiliary soldiers depicted on other Rhineland tombstones. Some of the cavalry servants are also shown elsewhere with a helmet. These 'tunics' appear to have a fringe at the bottom which Robinson interpreted as mail showing beneath the cover. On the Silius tombstone this fringe was red. However the same 'tunics' shown without the fringe Robinson argued were originally coloured to look like mail. A wall mural from Pompeii which shows a mail shirt with shoulder doubling worn over a red tunic would suggest that Roman artists would paint mail as dark grey with light grey or white flecks.

yellow-painted leather

Not too far fetched actually. The seventeenth century buff coats were dyed yellow.

Oh, and just for a general FYI to anyone quoting sources...when you do so, but only list the author, title and page number, it doesn't really help anyone who doesn't have that book.

It is a lot easier getting books than some academic articles believe me! Plus, the book mentioned above is dead easy to get! :wink: :wink: However are you suggesting people post whole chapters and pictures from books? There would be copyright issues for one thing.

M. Speidel, Eagle-Bearer and Trumpeter, in: Bonner Jahrbücher 176, p.123-163, esp. 124.

I wish it was always like this but I found this source from Christian in less than two minutes and looked it up but then that is the result of over ten years collecting material on tunic and cloak colours.


Graham.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Christian, the opposite holds true...one can just as easily determine in fact that the Romans may have used such combinations. I think to say that a green tunic + red cloak never existed would be a fallacy. Especially given the fact that other colours contrast better than green against red (blue and yellow spring to mind).

Absolutely. That´s why I said:

must not necessarily show the actual colours

However such colours do not necessarily include eyes, lips, etc., as can be seen in several cases. Also it is difficult to judge to which extent the colours were coded in the copy-books, resp. to which extent they were conventionalized. What we often (i.e. not always) see is that the colour on the tombstone is in fact conventional and is only visible on the tombstones, whereas other evidence shows other colours as well. The tombstone colours are usually restricted to blue, red, green (in all kinds of shades), which is not congruent with material sources as well as other depictions. Especially interesting when the groups of evidence are compared to each other.

when you do so, but only list the author, title and page number, it doesn't really help anyone who doesn't have that book. Especially if it is in another language... I've been guilty of it in the past, but am going to try and avoid doing that now. Otherwise anyone can start tossing out references without any way to potentially verify the passage's relevance to a thread.

Oh my, Matt. How would you want to solve this? In most countries anyone has access to every book in a national library. Or through inter-library-loan. Also, this is the typical academic way of referencing, the necessary information is provided. If you want to check, you have the possibility to do so. Or do you want everybody to quote full text w/ footnotes? Once we have complete online-libraries this will change, I guess.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Or that the Museum reconstructions themselves are actually based on any evidence for surviving colours. We often assume that because they are in Museums then they must have been but I know for certain in at least one case, that the museum staff simply made the colours up! This then became 'evidence' for Roman tunic colours!

Too true. From what one of our faculty staff said, this one was made after long-light picture and analysis. However, it might make sense to ask in Bonn.

John Peter Wild has also stated that red can be used to outline figures on tombstones. Christian if there is "ample evidence" for colour as a contrast do you have other examples? Naturally I am very interested.

Sure
- T. Flavius Surillio / Byzantion, in consequence from Speidel:
- G. Mendel, Catalogue des sculptures 3, Istanbul 1914, #891, #892
plus:
- Igel Column
- Loads of Jupitergigantensäulen
etc.

Here from the Igeler Säule, very well showing the highly conventionalized use of colour:

Not too far fetched actually. The seventeenth century buff coats were dyed yellow.

Hm. 1700 years seem quite far-fetched for my taste, regarding the massive changes in equipment etc, only between 9 and 90 or 9 and 250 or 1871 an 1971.

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Christian

I like the Igel images, never seen them in colour before, are they published anywhere? What are the reconstructed colours based on?

Hm. 1700 years seem quite far-fetched for my taste, regarding the massive changes in equipment etc, only between 9 and 90 or 9 and 250 or 1871 an 1971.

Quite right of course. However I was wondering if the reason it was done in pre Industrial Age Britain might have been the same as in the Roman period, given that many of the specialist tools and methods did not appear to change. Plus I seem to remember hearing Carol Van Driel Murray say that she thought (or wondered perhaps) if a lot of Roman leatherwork was coloured yellow.

Graham.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Graham,
yes, they are published. The monument still has some original colour on it, and was also inspected throroughly. I´ll have to look the reference up, though.
Here´s the old reco from the Trier museum:




Well, the "sämisch"-tanned (no idea of the english term) leather is usually yellow-ish.

[caiusbeerquitius]

E. Krüger, Die Igeler Säule. Das Grabmal der Secundinier in Igel, Trier, 1934.

[Graham Sumner]

Thanks Christian,

I will look for that later this week.

Graham.