leather cuirass

[Magnus]

LOL...

Dan, I used "grey" to simulate metal when I didn't have any metalic crayons handy. I agree with Mein Panzer though, while Jim's right that polished metal will relfect the colours around it, in Roman art they simplify it by making it a solid colour, apparently as close to the original material as possible.

[Tarbicus]

As a kid I coloured-in metallic objects with a blue pencil. I used it because it was the closest pigment I had to the colour of the material. It had nothing to do with reflections.

You were a child, Dan, not a grown man earning a living as an artist. If they had black and white pigments, unlike in your pencil box which are harder to mix, then they had grey.

[Tarbicus]

in Roman art they simplify it by making it a solid colour, apparently as close to the original material as possible.

You don't know that for sure, Matt, unless you've been time travelling again. :wink:

I've seen as much form in Roman art, showing shading and relief, as I have in anything by Giotto.

[Dan Howard]

As a kid I coloured-in metallic objects with a blue pencil. I used it because it was the closest pigment I had to the colour of the material. It had nothing to do with reflections.

You were a child, Dan, not a grown man earning a living as an artist. If they had black and white pigments, unlike in your pencil box which are harder to mix, then they had grey.

How many Classical illustrations are there that used grey to colour a sword or spear point? And how many other pigments are used to colour the same items?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I used to use gray too Matt! It was definately a logical choice!

I agree tarb that the Roman artists were well capable of the fine use of shading effects.
Even in mosaics, they manage to depict it!
So paiting would not be a challenge to their skills I think!

[MeinPanzer]

in Roman art they simplify it by making it a solid colour, apparently as close to the original material as possible.

You don't know that for sure, Matt, unless you've been time travelling again. :wink:

I've seen as much form in Roman art, showing shading and relief, as I have in anything by Giotto.

In this particular case, we are dealing with a painted cinerary sarcophagus, which seem to have been fairly plentiful in antiquity and which clearly were not examples of the highest quality of contemporary painting. All the examples of such sarcophagi that I've seen on which the colours have been preserved show that they were cartoonishly painted with bright solid colours, and often fairly roughly to boot. I somehow doubt that a painter working on such pieces would have concerned himself much with shading and whatnot (which were more techniques employed by painters of marble sculpture).

[Magnus]

in Roman art they simplify it by making it a solid colour, apparently as close to the original material as possible.

You don't know that for sure, Matt, unless you've been time travelling again. :wink:

I've seen as much form in Roman art, showing shading and relief, as I have in anything by Giotto.

Ok, fair enough, however any nuances in metallic objects are shown using a tint of the same basic colour. Light yellow and yellow for example. I haven't seen every painting and fresco, so I can't say for certain. I can only comment on what I've seen so far. Do you have pictures that show metalic items made up of multiple, different colours?

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,

I've been following the thread with some interest especially since it has digressed into the subject of color in Roman art.
Yes, there are examples of metalic objects (armor, helmets, shields) depicted with shades of a single color
to represent glares and shadows. Here's a splendid example from Santa Maggiore in Rome (early 5th century AD) :



Depending on the century the Romans and Byzantines could be quite sucessful in creating the illusion of three dimensional
figures using color variations to represent light and shadow.

~Theo

in Roman art they simplify it by making it a solid colour, apparently as close to the original material as possible.

You don't know that for sure, Matt, unless you've been time travelling again. :wink:

I've seen as much form in Roman art, showing shading and relief, as I have in anything by Giotto.

Ok, fair enough, however any nuances in metallic objects are shown using a tint of the same basic colour. Light yellow and yellow for example. I haven't seen every painting and fresco, so I can't say for certain. I can only comment on what I've seen so far. Do you have pictures that show metalic items made up of multiple, different colours?

[MeinPanzer]

Avete,

I've been following the thread with some interest especially since it has digressed into the subject of color in Roman art.
Yes, there are examples of metalic objects (armor, helmets, shields) depicted with shades of a single color
to represent glares and shadows. Here's a splendid example from Santa Maggiore in Rome :



Depending on the century the Romans and Byzantines could be quite sucessful in creating the illusion of three dimensional
figures using color variations to represent light and shadow.

~Theo

It is well known that the Greeks and the Romans were capable of depicting reflections on metals probably from about the 4th c. BC. However, one point must be demonstrated in this case for such an argument to be of any validity: it must be shown that Graeco-Roman painters employed any such shading and gradation of colours on small-scale three-dimensional objects, like this cinerary sarcophagus and terracotta figurines. All the actual examples of polychromy I have seen on terracotta figurines and such sarcophagi have been fairly crude and without any attempt at shading.

[Dan Howard]

It is well known that the Greeks and the Romans were capable of depicting reflections on metals probably from about the 4th c. BC. However, one point must be demonstrated in this case for such an argument to be of any validity: it must be shown that Graeco-Roman painters employed any such shading and gradation of colours on small-scale three-dimensional objects, like this cinerary sarcophagus and terracotta figurines. All the actual examples of polychromy I have seen on terracotta figurines and such sarcophagi have been fairly crude and without any attempt at shading.

That was my point also. If reflections and shades of colour were used by the Romans on these smaller objects then produce some examples. There are plenty to select from.

[Tarbicus]

It is well known that the Greeks and the Romans were capable of depicting reflections on metals probably from about the 4th c. BC. However, one point must be demonstrated in this case for such an argument to be of any validity: it must be shown that Graeco-Roman painters employed any such shading and gradation of colours on small-scale three-dimensional objects, like this cinerary sarcophagus and terracotta figurines. All the actual examples of polychromy I have seen on terracotta figurines and such sarcophagi have been fairly crude and without any attempt at shading.

That was my point also. If reflections and shades of colour were used by the Romans on these smaller objects then produce some examples. There are plenty to select from.

That's actually the complete opposite of my point. Blue coloured iron is probably reflecting the sky, and green coloured iron is probably reflecting the environment. Otherwise, given that they had black and white pigments, iron would always be grey.

All blue, and all green, is a simplistic representation of the reflections in the iron. That's all. It's a simple Occam's Razor explanation for why the artist would paint grey iron as blue or green, unless iron in those days was either blue or green.

[MeinPanzer]

Anyway, this whole argument is moot. I thought this urn/sarcophagus looked familiar, and then I realized that I'd just seen it recently in an article and I also found another photograph of it online:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3434/339 ... bd.jpg?v=0

As can be seen, the colour is off in the photograph posted in this thread, and the green we're discussins is just a greyish blue - exactly the colour we would expect to represent iron.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Ruben, like some others here I have seen this urn several times in reality, and the colour is certainly rather greenish than blueish. Comparing it with my pic above or personal memory it is rather that the picture you provide here is a bit on the pale side. Apart from that it is not really essential, since nothing but a chemical analysis will possibly tell us what colour was originally on the urn. D´Amato´s argument that were a representation of a green leather armour is, as we have seen, more on the shaky side. So, the exact shade of the colour is for our discussion not really relevant.

[Magnus]

That's actually the complete opposite of my point. Blue coloured iron is probably reflecting the sky, and green coloured iron is probably reflecting the environment. Otherwise, given that they had black and white pigments, iron would always be grey.

All blue, and all green, is a simplistic representation of the reflections in the iron. That's all. It's a simple Occam's Razor explanation for why the artist would paint grey iron as blue or green, unless iron in those days was either blue or green.

Jim, how do you know that is the reason such armours are done green and blue?

[Doc]

In support of Jim's statment, I will throw my two cents in and say that I do oil paintings and when I portray an iron object in the outdoors, it usually shows that reflection of its surroundings on its surface. With respect to certain objects, artists tend to have similar views i.e. if you look at paintings of iron objects, they tend to have what is immediately surrounding them on the surface. I cannot see why the Roman artist would be devoid of the same observation. We also cannot categorically say yes or no to most of the things we see with respect to the Romans. We were not there and even though we have "evidence" all we can do is interpret what it "could" have been and nothing more. Thus you have to start with a principal that is similar between all of us. In this case it is artists and what they generally see when it comes to metallic objects.