Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Leather or linen pteriges?
#16
of course yes. But I think leather pteryges were less common than textile.
Luca Bonacina
Provincia Cisalpina - Mediolanum
www.cisalpina.net
Reply
#17
I'm definitely in the textile camp. My experiments with construction are here: link from old RAT.

We almost always see pteruges in layers, which if done with leather (even thin leather) would get fairly bulky at the waistline. With fabric this can be avoided through pleating and you get the layered effect quite nicely. This also achieves the splaying that we see in every figure that isn't standing straight up. Based on those images, I can't see how the pteruges were 'straps'... they must have been connected, and I really have a hard time imagining that done with leather.

As for the braids, that's also quite simple with fabric. As I show in the thread, simply take out the weft threads, tie them into 1/4" groups at the hem, and twist them into braids. If you twist each pair in opposite directions you will get the effect shown in the sculptures. I think it's feasible that this was done on the loom on the originals, though.

--Kelsey
Kelsey McLeod
Reply
#18
Kelsey, I am quite sold on your interpretation, but also the possibility there are many styles and materials used.
The statue of Marcus Aurelius seems to be definately linen/cloth of some type.
But looking back on the Caelius stele, I think there are 2 materials used now(yes, I've changed my mind again :roll: )
Possibly the outer layers are leather strips, the inside, more voluminus perhaps your style, but a cloth of some style, imho.?

Wish I had the talents to put my ideas into practice. Great work on all the ones I have seen so far.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#19
Quote:...the possibility there are many styles and materials used.

I think I'm with you on that as well. I see at least three pteruge types, which can be combined:
  • 1. The innermost set which ends 4-6" above the knee (seen almost everywhere although these sometimes reach as high as mid-thigh)
    2. The second set which ends somewhere close to the hip (as seen on the caelius, facilis, and M Aurelius reliefs)
    3. The scalloped pteruges which hang about the waist.

With #1 above (and sometimes without it) we see either #2 or #3:

#2 above seems to me to go either way (fabric or not). Here are some examples which I think show it in fabric:
[url:1b65kh1k]http://fvankeur.myweb.uga.edu/CastTrophyArea.jpg[/url]
[url:1b65kh1k]https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/leach/www/c414/2005/cuirassdeity1.jpg[/url]
... basically if I see tassles at the ends of the 2nd set I'm inclined to think it's part of a fabric garment. The majority of figures which show a distinct second set seem to have tassles, so I'm thinking this was predominant for the second set.

However, looking at Caelius and Facilis, I see no tassles or anything else that says fabric on that second set (other than a striking similarity to the 1st set, with the exception of the tassles). I figure if they are not fabric, they could be the extension of a leather jerkin that either slips over the tassled underlayer which has been cut into straps.

#3 definitely seems to be leather to me on the scalloped edges of the muscled cuirass. But again I don't think that was the only way.
These images of General Aphrodisias show what I see as the fabric approach (with knife pleating), basically just like #1:
[url:1b65kh1k]http://fvankeur.myweb.uga.edu/AphrodisiasGeneral.jpg[/url]
[url:1b65kh1k]http://www.turkeyherald.com/kusadasi/images/aphrodisias_museum.jpg[/url]

This one below is hard to tell but the extensions of the vertical lines are intriguing (extensions of pleated fabric? leather straps sewn together? other?)
[attachment=0:1b65kh1k]<!-- ia0 cuirassed figurine.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1b65kh1k]

And the scalloped egdes on the musculata (the ones sometimes in alternating rows) frequently show a stitched edge, which is not conclusive but at least indicates to me they are made of layers (leather+fabric, leather+leather, perhaps some silver or brass metalwork included? etc.). My thinking on these is leather, and that they were at times attached to or integral to the cuirass (also leather). In some pieces they definitely appear to be sewn on to the cuirass but in others they seem to be just scalloped edging.

--Kelsey
Kelsey McLeod
Reply
#20
This figurine looks very similar to the Mars of Todi, especially the armour! Do you know wher it's from and how it's date?
Stephan Eitler
WAR CHUNNI ( http://www.awaren.net )
et
ERGASTERION BOSPOROU ( https://www.facebook.com/GensDanubiusEtP...us?fref=ts )
et
HETAIROI ( www.hetairoi.de )
Reply
#21
Quote:This figurine looks very similar to the Mars of Todi, especially the armour! Do you know wher it's from and how it's date?

Sorry, I'm kicking myself for not keeping better track of where I found the image. You're right though, it does bear a strong resemblance to the Mars of Todi.

Edit Smile 16aiz7y6]http://www.flickriver.com/photos/mharrsch/1246412/[/url] It's in the Walters art museum and the description reads, "Bronze Sculpture of Etruscan soldier 3rd century BCE Bronze".

--Kelsey
Kelsey McLeod
Reply
#22
A ve all,
I must say that I agree with Dr. T. Clark ( and if you read this Travis, please pm me as Jaqui and I would like to talk to you and yours) that most of the statues show fabric pteruges and I am going be finally making mine out of linen. Check out Jamie's articles on this board on how to make them.
Salve,
Vitruvius a.k.a. Larry
Larry A. Mager
Reply
#23
I have been thinking about pteruges recently and started to wonder, whatever the material, whether the reason there are normally at least two layers might be for one (the inner layer) to act as padding for the other (outer) layer, which might be stiffer and more resistant to cuts. The principle would be similar to mail, where the outer layer of mail prevents cuts but does little to cushion the blow, and the inner layer (the subarmalis) provides the padding.

This would not necessarily apply to the panoply worn by emperors (after all, there is evidence to suggest that the muscle cuirasses worn by some emperors were soft enough to bend when unsupported - hardly comparable to armour worn for protection in battle). It could however apply to pteruges worn by combat troops.

In this model, pteruges could still be made of either leather, rawhide or linen (and I agree that linen seems most likely) but the outer ones would be stiff enough to provide the capacity to deflect a blow whilst the inner ones could be less stiff but more padded and effectively take the subarmalis role. The inner pteruges at the shoulder could in fact be made as a single quited piece which could end up looking like separate pieces but would be prevented from flopping down when the arm was raised by being joined together.

What do you think?

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#24
I'm not sure whether the two layers would likely have been different, I'm sure if they were we'd see some more obvious trace in the scupltural record.

I really like the leather pteryges look sported by several reenactors and hollywood stars, but I'm becoming less and less convinced. Surely out of the tens of thousands of leather fragments from European sites, we'd have something resembling a pteryges set by now?

As you rightly note, where scuplture shows raised arms, the ptryges lap underneath the armpit, not flopping to the sides as per most reconstructions. I'm currently moving to the pleated camp!

I'm still intrigued by the greave lining from Dura which is an weft twined linen circa 5mm thick. Similar cloth has been found in association with military equipment from Masada. I should imagine this is a possible solution to your two layers argument, which bears a heavy echo of the two ply linen cuirass quoted elsewhere.
Tim Edwards
Leg II Avg (UK)
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiiavg.org.uk">http://www.legiiavg.org.uk
<a class="postlink" href="http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com">http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com
Reply
#25
Does anyone have a picture of the pleated system for the shoulders? I'm beginning the thinking part of making a set, and all ideas are welcome to be plugged into the mix.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#26
Well here goes.............having had my nether regions well kicked after my posting previously about making a subarmalis, i can say that the leather is harder to get to fall from the shoulders correctly unless you allow for a slight overhang on the body by the shoulder to allow the leather to drop over the shoulder once the leather strips are attached, i also angled the shoulder pteruges in a slight arc as they were attached to the body. trial and error fitting. i have now a linen sub and the same principle of the over shoulder material is employed, not describing it very well but basically once mail of plate armour is put on over the sub it has the effect of pushing the shoulders and thus the pteruges in a downwards angle overlapping and pointing down and not out, Have had a nice linen sub made to order from Peronis, quite honestly on both of my subs, leather and linen the armour holds the pteruges in the desired shape, though assistances is needed to pull the danglies from out of your armour. Hope i haven't confused matters here and hope it may be of some use

martin
martin ward
vicuscenturion

carpe diem[/quote]
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Roman linen/leather armour scotti73 5 1,794 05-16-2013, 08:06 PM
Last Post: Graham Sumner
  Making a leather covered quilted linen cuirass Quintilianus 26 7,232 11-25-2011, 09:35 PM
Last Post: TDawson
  Squamata backing: leather or linen? Franklin 13 2,515 10-06-2006, 06:21 PM
Last Post: Franklin

Forum Jump: