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Bronze lorica segmentata?
#61
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Flavius, regarding modern materials, it isn't reasonable to expect useful results from modern homogenous steels. They have completely different mechanical properties to wrought iron. In the case of mail, even mild steel wire has a much greater tendency to snap than wrought iron. Wrought iron will bend and twist rather than breaking - greatly increasing the force needed to penetrate it. The percentage of slag inclusions also affects the armour's performance. Generally slag in wrought iron wire is very low (otherwise it couldn't be drawn). In plate the quality of iron can be much lower. So you can't assume that all iron armour was made from the same material.<br>
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All good points. However, I would still wager that the relative performance of plate and mail made from modern materials will be quite similar to their ancient counterparts. How similar or dissimilar will have to wait until Mr. Sim (or someone else) tests wrought-iron wire mail against a hand-forged segmentata.<br>
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>Regarding the weight of mail. Mail offers much more coverage. If mail was shortened to only cover the same area as segmentata it wouldn't weigh that much more.<hr><br>
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This is true and I believe I made a point that mail coverage is superior in an earlier post. However, even if cut to fit a comparable area, a mail shirt is, in my experience, 20-30% heavier than plate; it's true, though, that since mail conforms better to the body, the wieght difference is somewhat compensated for by better weight distribution. And you tend to notice the difference more at the end of the day, when you;ve taken your armor off, than while you're actually wearing it.<br>
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is a reason why mail saw continuous use by virtually every metal using culture on the planet for over 2000 years and segmentata lasted only two or three centuries. Why was segmentata phased out around the same time as the state began to take over the production of body armour and the administration of the fabricae? Why did mail see continuous use throughout this period, both before and after segmentata? <hr><br>
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My own theory is this: The lorica seg is an excellent armor for a peacetime army-- one that spends most of its time on garrison duty and patrolling frontiers from fixed locations, and sees only sporadic bursts of warfare. While its protective qualities are exceptional, it also extremely maintenance-intensive, requiring constant removal of rust, repair of internal leathers, fixing of hinges, etc. This is why its period of popularity corresponds almost exactly with the period of the Pax Romana. Once warfare became almost constant in the later second and third centuries, soldiers had far less time in barracks to fuss with their equipment. As lorica segs fell out of use through attrition, they were replaced with armors that required less upkeep-- mail and various forms of scale. Plate never went entirely out of use-- arm and leg defenses were still made this way, and segmented plate armor was eventually rediscovered in the 13th century.<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Leg VI VPF<br>
CA, USA <p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#62
Regarding the weight of mail, if it was made in an authentic fashion with alternative rows of riveted and punched rings it is much lighter than many assume if their experience is with butted mail. My experience is mainly with medieval mail but a typical short-sleeved shirt reaching down to the thighs might weigh 10-12 lbs. Even the heaviest mail of the same configuration would weigh less than 20 lbs.Take off the sleeves and reduce the length and it will be lighter still. <p></p><i></i>
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#63
Hi Graham, sorry for the late answer I was on vacation in the real world --pretty nice too..<br>
my email: [email protected] <br>
I will be very glad to look at that picture.<br>
I re-read lately a story of Napoleon's Grande Armée which relates an episode of the early napoleonic era, namely the Consulate. Being a ancient Romans's fan like a lot of people then, Napoleon ordered a "legion" to be raised, all dressed in nice skirts with short swords and sleeping under canvas in the Field de Mars in Paris. That's where the Eiffel Tower is nowadays.<br>
Of course the experiment lasted one winter and given the fact that a real war was going on at that time the "legionaries" were quickly converted into more conventional line fusiliers and grenadiers...<br>
That should be in line with the theory of the monarch's whim, and Caracalla deciding to get into the antiquarian business with his "pahlangites".<br>
However, Cassius Dio speaks of fifteen thousand men. Three legions are a lot of legionaries. Could they be the Severan Parthian legions?<br>
And in this case, could the strange pseudo-thrakian helmets seen on the arch of Septimus --classified by us specialists as "smurf type"-- be the rawhide helmets in question?<br>
That would depend on when the arch was erected. Do we know that?<br>
As for the bronze segmentata. My theory is that some were piped with bronze, as shown in the Kalkriese fragment. The evolution of the segmentata shows a clear R and D attitude as it became simpler, and thus cheaper and quicker to make, with time. First they did without the piping, then they found a simpler way to attach the girdles to the chest plate, then they reduced the number of girdles and so on..<br>
But that guy on the painting (Neronian?) is not a praetorian, I think.. <p></p><i></i>
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