Bronze lorica segmentata?

[Tarbicus]

Quote:</em></strong><hr> What is meant by 3-ply linen? Using only three layers would not offer any protection. Does it mean "3-piece" linen cuirass?<hr><br>
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Are you really sure? Felt, for instance, is supposed to be a stunning piece of personal armour. Even braided hair (Spartans through to Napoleonic cavalry types) is known to be a top means of deflecting that slash to the head. The best armour is usually layered, like a tank is covered in 'layers'. Every layer absorbs energy and distributes and weakens it, only for the remaining energy to be absorbed by the next layers. Kevlar kind of works on a similar principal, where kinetic energy gets distributed through the separate layers.<br>
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Why would layers of linen not work in a similar way, bearing in mind Kevlar works against bullets, and the ancient's armour only had to deal with weapons employed by hand? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tarbicus>Tarbicus</A> at: 2/18/05 1:38 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Even the thinnest layer of felt is thicker than three layers of linen. Whikle Pausanias doesn't menton how thick the cuirasses were, he notes that they are inappropriate for battle, only hunting.<br>
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"Linen breastplates are not so useful to fighters, for they let the iron pass through, if the blow be a violent one. They aid hunters, how ever, for the teeth of lions or leopards break off in them." [1.21.7]<br>
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<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 2/18/05 10:34 pm<br></i>

[Tarbicus]

Okay. I'm old and mature enough to admit I was just shot down in flames<br>
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But, we don't know how many layers of linen were used, so my bum may be not so badly singed..... for now <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Posted with the permission of Ken Evans.<br>
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<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/JohnMcDermott/Mark1.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Whoah!<br>
<br>
It's a great look. Am I correct that this guy has reversed the metal all around-- i.e. that the hinges, tie loops and all the parts that would have been brass on a regular lorica are all steel (or iron) here? Or are they just tinned brass?<br>
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Also, how heavy is this relative to a regular lorica? How easy (or difficult) was it to make relative to a regular one?<br>
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Is this guy with your unit? Or another one? Details, we want details!<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Leg VI VPF<br>
CA, USA <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/19/05 9:14 pm<br></i>

[mcbishop]

<em>Details, we want details!</em><br>
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And industrial quantities of Brasso, I would have thought... ;-)<br>
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Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

According to Carter the backing of the leather scale cuirass found in Tut's tomb was made from 6 layers of linen. I find it hard to beleive that standalone armour would be any less substantial than this. <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Forget brasso. Try Louisiana hot sauce. I have no details on this, other than that its owner is named Mark. Ken Evans sent me this and other pictures of people and things in the UK. <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Think, people.<br>
The thickness of a sheet of linen is entrely dependent on the thickness of the threads it is woven from. If the only linen you have ever seen is what is used for fashion garments in department stores, then a "3 ply cuirass" does not seem very effective. Linen sails for great sailing ships are fairly thick compared to department store linen. I have a very old metal framed military cot in which the single ply linen bed is close to 1/4 inch thick! Three layers of linen like this would be a very adequate armor.<br>
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I believe the account which describes the felt subarmalis also states that it was also worn alone as a form of armor. Here again, there are many qualities of felt, the useless kind you see in a dimestore, but some as thick and as strong as a buff coat, which was also a popular armor.<br>
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Scientific tests at the Royal armouries have proven that a leather helmet can be just as strong as an iron one -- certainly more effective than some incredibly thin skinned Roman helmets.<br>
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As for the bronze segmentatae, it is certainly possible, and the "praetorian" in the Mural of Nero's Golden House is probably the representation of such an armor, but it cannot have been common or more evidence whould have been found by now. Unless the Corbridge lorica type buckles and lobate hinges of the Bulgarian finds discovered in association with the cupric alloy lames show any evidence of actually being attached to the said lames, then in all probability, this find represents fragments of two seperate armors that just happened to have been deposited together. An excellent example of where this has occured before was in the armory of Carnuntum, where masses of iron scales and lorica segmentatae plates have rusted together in a single mass. Were they part of the same armor? Possibly yes, but more likely two (or more) armors that happened to have been buried together. Ultimately, if the Bulgarian lames were part of the same armor as the hinges and buckles foujnd in the same deposit, then cupric alloy plate fragments should be detected between the rivets and hinges and buckles.<br>
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Dan<br>
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<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave,<br>
<br>
Wasn't horse glue (basically resin) used to bind the layers of linen to each other, as well? I have felt cotton canvas that has been glued together by horse glue, and when dry, it is remarkably durable....downright hard!<br>
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Sword penetrating durable? I didn't have the chance to find out unfortunately.<br>
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Britannicus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Mr Peterson, many thanks for the response.<br>
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Regarding the glued linothorax I think casein (milk/cheese) glue might have been more likely than hide glue. It is the only contemporary adhesive I'm aware of that can be waterproofed and it was extensively used for other applications.<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,<br>
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There may be some artistic support for the use of a bronze segmentata. The Osprey book "Roman Military Clothing (1) 100 BC - 200 AD" has a watercolor of a Praetorian guardsman wearing a bronze segmentata on Plate "F". The description says the artist based his drawing on a painting from the Golden House of Nero.<br>
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Has anyone seen this painting in color ?<br>
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<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/nero.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
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<br>
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-Theo <p></p><i></i>

[Uwe Bahr]

Ave Theodosius,<br>
<br>
it has been treated here already, but I couldn't find the topic, so here is the picture without further comments:<br>
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<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/uwe-bahr/PraetorianervonDomusAurea.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
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Uwe <p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Very nice .<br>
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Thanks for posting it, Uwe. <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Yes, thanks for posting this picture, Uwe.<br>
<br>
Now, let's take a poll. How many of us look at this picture and see:<br>
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(a) A praetorian guardsman wearing a brass or gilded lorica segmentata?<br>
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(b) A Hellenic hero wearing a more-or-less standard Greek panoply of a Corinthian helmet, muscle cuirass, hoplon, and greaves?<br>
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© A polyglot figure, perhaps intended to represent Ajax or some other hero, wearing a pastiche of Greek and Roman armor?<br>
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(d) Other (please explain).<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI VPF<br>
CA, USA <p></p><i></i>