Login

03-08-2005, 04:18 AM

I heard that a roman army could march about 24 miles in about 5-6 hours. I could be way off, after all it was something I heard, but how accurate do you think this is. If it is not, what do you think is the average speed of a legion. How "in-shape" were those soldiers. I know that I would be capable of doing that with a pack, but don't know about armor and weapons. Has anyone tried long extensive marches. What physical limit has any reached in full armor? Aug33

03-08-2005, 05:20 AM

They might have been able to if they didn't stop to rest and did it at the double a fair amount of the way. I doubt they were in better or worse shape than soldiers in any other army. I'd imigine though that they must of only done about 15-20 miles a day on average. 
 
Off the subject, some Native Americans could run 100 miles or so at a stretch. In one of the early Olympic games one won the marathon than proceded to run several more miles until someone caught up to him and told him that the race was over to which he responded, "Oh, I thought it had just started."

03-08-2005, 01:42 PM

Also remember that is 24 roman miles, not modern miles. This translates to less than 20 modern miles.

John M McDermott · 03-08-2005, 06:08 PM

Neuralmancer took the words out of my mouth. 
 
Other factors to consider: 
 
Roman soldiers were infantrymen and nothing else. 
 
20 miles in 6 hours is just over 3 miles per hour.(Roman) 
 
Civil war regiments regularly turned in marching performances similar to this. So did infantry in WWII.

03-09-2005, 06:25 AM

So what I get from everyone is that it "could" be possible. I would say that it is possible. I have done similar marches in the mountains, but nothing that far and in that quick of time. Has anyone tried on long marche? Do you try and train yourselves to be able to go on a hard march? Wouldn't that be a part of the re-enactment? To re-enact the situations and conditions soldiers were in? Does anyone have outings in the rain? Aug33

Felix · 03-09-2005, 11:47 PM

Some variables affecting the speed of a march: 
 
How many men are involved? The process involved in getting 5,000 men going in the morning and stopping in the evening is much more complicated than, say, 30 men. The rate of march is generally slower for large forces. 
 
Is the march on Roman roads, off the main roads? The Roman roads naturally facilitated troop movement, and were less sensitive to the weather than local dirt paths. 
 
Are the troops in friendly or in hostile territory? In hostile territory, making and breaking camp took a fair amount of time, and must have slowed the overall speed of an army. The necessity of scouting (which was occasionally neglected) would also tend to impede rapid movement.

03-10-2005, 01:36 AM

Avete, 
 
In difficult conditions it took Xenophon's 10,000 soldiers a couple weeks just to go 90 miles! 
I often go on fairly long runs. I march and climb A LOT in the mountains, and it is clear that the terrain has everything to do with your progress. Marching through through tall grass in suffocating heat, picking through deadfall, up, down, and across steep slopes, through bogs, fighting through thick underbrush, traversing crumbling cliffs, crossing rivers, quagmires, though deep and slippery snow, ice capped inclines, climbing snow covered cliffs without gloves (Not Fun!) etc. etc. etc. is hard enough just carrying WW2 German military gear! Wearing armor and carrying a scutum would make some of this impossible! 
 
Obviously one cannot traverse 5mph for 5 hours in difficult conditions. But, how far and for how long could the legions march on a nice, level, Roman road in good weather? Have any of you marched long distances with your gear and armor? If so, what are your thoughts? Do your reenactment groups have areas where they can march and then build a fortified camp? I haven't had the opportunity to join a reenactment group, but I imagine that you would endeavor to push yourselves to your limits. 
I have gone on long endurance marches over VERY steep, rugged terrain in German army layout, but that is considerably easier than doing it in armor. 
 
Valete, 
 
-Spatha

03-10-2005, 05:16 PM

I agree with you that the number of soldiers would make a differance and a large group of men in hostile territory would naturally travle slower. I would say though that a legion would be able to cover close to that amount of ground on a roman road in their own country. Marching on a trail and marching in the brush makes a big differance. I suggest, If any one cares, that any re-enactment group take up the challenge of testing this idea. They should try a forced march in full battle gear and see what kind of times they can produce. But, then you have to take in the factor that not everyone is a soldier for life and have other jobs. Some people may not be in very good physical shape. I would suggest having a number of trained military soldiers wear the gear and try the experiment. Just a thought, if anyone is willing to try it. Aug33

03-11-2005, 10:36 AM

Soldiers would not march in armour, that would be carried by mules or in wagons.

Caius Fabius · 03-11-2005, 06:54 PM

Roman soldiers often marched in armor. They carried their shields. Several times it is mentioned that they did not have time to put off their shield covers, or attach their feathers and crests, but were able to fight immediately on being attacked. They dug ditches in armor, one man was executed for removing his sword while digging a ditch! 
 
At Fort Benning, Georgia, as a basic training company commander, I took each training company on at least one 20-24 mile road march about every 6-7 weeks. which means my drill sergeants and officers marched with the troops. It kept us in great shape, (I was only about 230 pounds back then. We carried full equipment, helmet, weapon, rucksack, extra water, and usually by the end of the marches the drill sergeants and officers were carrying extra equipment for the trainees. We usually had a 2 1/2 ton truck ( or sometimes just 1/4 ton jeep) following the road march for medical casualties (and extra water and a spare radio) and often dumped the discarded equipment in the truck, but we carried 60 pounds with ruck, weapons, gas mask, water, and we marched not Roman miles, but modern miles. We traded off the extra weight of the radio and medical bag, and the heavy weapons like M-60's and light antitank weapons. I remember that we did have a time limit for the 20 miles, but I can't quote it off the top of my head, (old age I guess). 
 
One trick for a faster time is to walk 100 paces, then double time or jog 100 paces, alternating, with a 5 minute water and piss break every hour. We covered 90 miles in three days using this tactic, and sleeping without digging in. 
 
The modern American infantry units often still dig in with quite elaborate foxholes and fighting positions at the end of a march with full gear, sometimes we have weighed a combat load of 130-150 pounds in addition to the basic uniform. 
 
I was also a combat marksmanship trainer and competitor, where we ran in military equipment, and stopped at various places to fire at targets, carrying only about 30 pounds of gear. It is harder to get a good sight picture when you are still panting! 
 
After breaking my neck and damaging my hip and lower back, I couldn't do any of that stuff anymore, but, back then, several of my senior drill sergeants were in their late 40's and marched the basic trainees into the ground. 
 
The first few times I did this 24 mile march, my legs and back hurt and I got blisters on feet and raw spots from the backpack, but as you get used to it (with time and practice), it becomes a fun day away from the hassles of the cantonment area and all the REMFs trying to assign you additional details. We told the troops it was a 20 mile march, but it was 12 miles out and 12 back. Sometimes we would march straight out for 18 miles or 22 miles and arrange to have trucks bring the troops back in, sometimes they marched to their next training area, and sometimes they went from the roadmarch into a tactical exercise of livefire on a range. 
 
The more troops involved, the more the accordion effect takes effect. I have marched in battalion and brigade road marches, and been in Divisional parades. The disadvantage is the extra time to get people all started moving, the advantage is that troops get more time to rest (on their feet, but not moving) while the higher ups mess around. 
 
There is a big difference between marching along a paved road, and trying to go cross country. As a competitive orienteering sportsman, and an ex Army combat leader in several types of terrain, I think that 20 Roman miles with full gear in broken ground would be a textbook dream, but not a Field reality. We usually got about 12-18 miles in forest or desert, without wearing out the men, and mountains and jungle might reduce that to 2-3 miles a day if it was very rough. Slogging through average waist deep mud, cutting though dense vegetation while looking for boobytraps, or climbing near vertical rockfaces makes all the schoolbook distances a moot point. 
 
I have to relate that Dan Peterson and XVIIII LEG did march along the Limes in Germany in full infantry equipment, and they Dan also went along with Dr. Junklemann with his cavalry ride in full equipment. When Dan sits down and writes his books about those experiences, we'll add to our knowledge of Roman military. LEGIO X FRETENSIS and their commander make long road marches in full equipment, in the California desert as well as along other routes. Robert (the centurion) is an older, ex-infantry officer, but still in excellent shape! 
 
If you are a young, healthy person and want to be a Roman re-enactor, I suggest that you take up a hobby which includes a lot of walking and running, or enlist and spend a couple of years in the military (Army or Marines) in a combat arms specialty, and learn more about what soldiers and you yourself can actually do. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert SpencerEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/12/05 7:19 am

03-11-2005, 09:37 PM

Hi Caius Fabius 
I remember having read about armour carried by mules, even by slaves, in Roman Army. I guess thta could change according to period or type of service, I would say it would be normal not to carry armour when marching through friendly territory

TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX · 03-11-2005, 11:47 PM

I think you are thinking of the republic, after the reforms of marius soldiers carried thier gear with them, hence the nickname "Marius' mules" only one mule was usually alotted to an 8 man tent group, this would not be sufficient to carry all thier armour, maybe thier extra pilum, and a few pieces of impedimenta, plus tent &c.

03-12-2005, 06:50 AM

Wow, I think that was the best answer I have ever gotten on this forum. It was great detail and answered many of my questions. Thanks a lot, Aug33

03-12-2005, 09:33 PM

as had been mentioned - Republican Legionaries had to supply thier own packmules to haul gear, and generally didn't wear armor on the march, after the reforms of Caius Marius (c. 100 BC) "Imperial" soldiers in a Contubernium (8 men) shared 1 pack mule, who usually carried the tent - The soldiers had to march in armor with the marching pack (Furca/Sarcina), with Scutum strapped to them. 
 
Them guys had to have been in really good shape. I sure wouldn't want to mess with them when they finished a full march. What a haul! Titus Vulpius Dominicus ~ Your Friendly Neighborhood Roman Dude. 
 
Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re (Soft in Manner, Strong in Deed) 
 
www.higgins.org 
www.higginssword.org

Mithras · 03-21-2005, 09:10 PM

The Late Roman legionaries were also averse to wearing armour on the march and had it shipped in wagons or on mules. Sensible!! Paul Elliott/Caius Fortunatus 
 
3rd Century Auxiliary (Cohors Quinta Gallorum) 
 
4th Century Legionnary (Comitatus) 
 
www.geocities.com/zozergames/interactive.html

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me