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03-03-2005, 03:35 AM

Well, we know that Magister Militum Praesentalis II was commanding the armies mostly in the Asia. I wonder about the situation of the province Pamphylia, it was consular at the age of Notitia Dignitatum (early fifth sentury), and with a law issued by Leo I, it became a comitiva (county) like some others. In both times, were Pamphylian or Isaurian consulars or comites commanded by the Magister Militum Praesentalis II? I mean they were not a part of the area of Magister Militum per Orientem (of East), as I know. 
Can anyone suggest about this matter? 
thanks Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=patroos>Patroos</A> at: 3/3/05 10:48 pm

Jeroen Pelgrom · 03-07-2005, 08:46 AM

if i understand the [url=http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/ori001.htm" target="top]Notitia dignitatum omnium, in partibus Orientis. [/url] correctly, the provinces of Isauria and Pamfylia are listed with the praefecti praetorio per Orientem: 
 
II. Sub dispositione viri illustris praefecti praetorio per Orientem sunt dioceses infrascriptae: 
.... Isauria, ..... Pamfylia... 
 
------------------------------------------------------- 
A great flame follows a little spark. 
Dante Alighieri,The Divine Comedy

03-08-2005, 02:20 AM

well, I see Pamphylia is under the Pratorian Prefecture for Oriens. So can we say that the armies in Pamphylia or Asiana in general were commanded by Magister Militum per Orientem? were the military and administrative divisions of East the same? 
actually I am trying to find out who commanded the armies in Asiana and Oriens. I need the information of the man who is just after emperor for the military command in the east. Furthermore, was Magister Militum Praesentalis lower than Magister Militum per Orientem? 
I know I asked a lot, I need to understand this structure. 
thanks QUI DESIDERAT PACEM, PRAEPARET BELLUM!

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-08-2005, 07:37 AM

Hi Patroos, 
 
I think you need to specify the periods you're studying. 
 
The Notitia Dignitatum was apparently written c. 394, but is thought to reflect an ever earlier period for the Eastern Empire. By the early 5th c. it may have differed considerably. Leo lived about a century later, which may mean the situation had altered even more. I don't have much information about the later 5th c. though. 
 
As a rule, military and administrative divisions need not be the same, but for some regions they may overlap. 
 
For instance, in the ND there is a Comes per Isauriam who apparently commands a specific military area. 
In the meantime, section XXII tells us that Isauria (the province) fell under the Comes Orientis, who is listed next to the praefectus praetorio per Orientem. 
 
These are probably the limitanei forces. 
The Magister Militium per Orientem in turn commanded the field army of the East. 
 
Apparently the Comes Orientis commanded most of the Middle East, from southern Turkey to Arabia. 
 
The praefectus praetorio per Orientem though, commanded the dioceses of Oriens, Aegyptus, Asiana, Pontica and Thracia. 
The diocese of Asiana was commanded in turn by the Vicarius dioceseos Asianae. This included both provinces of Isauria and Pamfylia. 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/8/05 8:53 am

03-08-2005, 01:57 PM

thanks Vortigern Studies, 
It was very helpful for me. I know that the period I am trying to construct is later than Notitia Dignitatum, even I am working the around 500 in the time of Anastasius. But still I have to understand notitia dignitatum, since it gives the military command structure. 
Actually, still somethig is unclear to me, while you are saying "The Magister Militium per Orientem in turn commanded the field army of the East", in this case I need to understand where exactly the word "east" cover. Is that whole Anatolia and middle east or where? 
"Apparently the Comes Orientis commanded most of the Middle East, from southern Turkey to Arabia." thaks you explain here where Orient is. Here do you say that armies in Pamphylia were limitanei? and are they under the comes orientis, who is under the Magister militum Per Orientem? 
and additionaly, as far as I understand there is nothing to relate the praesental armies to Pamphylia, right? 
The main question is "Are the armies in Pamphylia under the responsibility of Magister Militum per Orientem at the top? and Where is his command region in geographical description? 
I will not ask anything about Praetorian Prefecture, which actually confuses me, since I know tha it is not military any more at the period. 
thanks QUI DESIDERAT PACEM, PRAEPARET BELLUM!Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=patroos>Patroos</A> at: 3/8/05 3:09 pm

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-08-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:<hr>while you are saying "The Magister Militium per Orientem in turn commanded the field army of the East", I need to to understand where the word "east" cover.<hr> 
 
With 'the East' I mean the eastern half of the Empire. So he was in effect the highest military commander, just as, for instance, Stilicho or Aetius commanded all the troops of the West at some time. 
 
Quote:<hr>Here do you say that armies in Pamphylia were limitanei? and are they under the comes orientis, who is under the Magister militum Per Orientem?<hr> 
It would mean just about that. A Comes was a military official who commanded a specific military region, with some mobile forces but mostly limitanei. If Pamphylia was not a large region, I would suppose (I have no knowledge about the station of each unit) that most were limitanei. 
 
Quote:<hr>there is nothing to relate praesental armies to Pamphylia, right?<hr> 
Nothing insofar that they were apparently not stationed there permanently. But they could certainlyly be quartered there during operations. 
Often, units from the field army were sent on missions to a region, only to become permanently stationed there. 
So it may well be that a unit from the Praesental Army in 370 became stationed in Pamphylia by 470. Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

03-08-2005, 02:15 PM

Thank you very much, Vortigern Studies! 
It was so helpful QUI DESIDERAT PACEM, PRAEPARET BELLUM!

03-15-2005, 11:54 PM

The military organisation as presented in the Notitia dignitatum omnium, tam civilium quam militarium, in partibus Orientis can be confusing. There are two distinct parts of the Roman/Byzantine military: the limitanei or frontier forces, and the comitatensis or field (or mobile) armies. These were separate and distinct in theory. The latter were organised into five regional armies of which the two commanded by the magistri militum praesentalis (masters of the military in the presence of the emperor) were senior. One of the magistri could be the senior military commander for the entire military, both comitatensis and limitanei. This was not a permanent position because any such commander could have too much power, so the imperial court often kept the two magistri on an equal footing to prevent this trend. The two armies were stationed near Constantinople to protect the emperor and capitol with secondary roles of supporting the three regional armies. 
 
The Magister Militum per Orientem commanded the field army that was stationed in the eastern provinces and was the closest army to the Sassanian Persian Empire. This is the army that Belisarios commanded at Dara in 530 and at Callinicum in 531 AD. It was very active during the earlier war against Persia in 502-506 during the reign of Anastasios. These conflicts are covered in ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œRome and Persia at War, 502-532ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â

03-16-2005, 03:16 AM

Many many thanks PR Gray, it was really useful. 
 
best regards QUI DESIDERAT PACEM, PRAEPARET BELLUM!

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