Illerup Adal

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Not directly Roman archeology but Illerup Adal continues to yield it's secrets http://www.cphpost.dk/component/content ... ?task=view
Thanks to Steve Pollington for bringing this to our attention.

Ingvar Sigurdson
Dave Huggins
Ulfhednar England

[Robert Vermaat]

Yikes! To envision a long line of captives being led to the lake.. maybe even Romans, who knows? I'd be interested to know whether more research will tell us where the men came from.

Thanks Ingvar!

[Paullus Scipio]

Quite macabre !.....a reminder that the past was a very cruel place. With the wonders of modern science, DNA testing etc, I don't doubt that the origins of the victims could be ascertained, but it will probably be a question of time, resources and money as to whether anyone will bother......

Perhaps local tribesmen, victims of the endemic warfare of the times are a lttle more likely than Romans.....

Wonder if anyone has the time/money to classify, measure and publish the "15,000" (!!!) hock: or more weapons etc

[Medicus matt]

Wonder if anyone has the time/money to classify, measure and publish the "15,000" (!!!) hock: or more weapons etc

A lot of them have already been published in the 12 (is it 12 now, I forget?) volumes of finds reports. And lovely things they are too. Sooooo many swords in wonderful condition, so many scabbards to reconstruct....

(If anyone is interested in having a reconstruction made of one of the Illerup scabbards I'll give them a hefty discount, just because I'm itching to have a go at one).

[garrelt]

Very interesting find.
Those skeletal remains will have their own story to tell.
Have textile fragments also been found which could be from clothing ?

Matt
I will check next week in the museum shop in Moesgard if it are still 12 volumes.

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Speaking of macabre here is an equally interesting link of a recent finds during highway works in the south of England

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 094935.stm

Rather confusingly the report says the finds are in the area of a 'Late Iron Age to Early Roman' burial ground!

I have been led to understand on another forum that the skeletal remains indicate an age range from late teens to twenty five and provisionally dated to the late 8thC/ early 9thC.

Perhaps further study will give a more approximate dating.

Garrelt, ref the Illerup finds, I'm not sure about any textile remains been found as yet, the report indicates the work is in it's early stages..looks like we may have to wait some time for them.

Matt, would jump at your offer for a scabbard.....first I would need an appropiate sword, Patrick Barta's version would be fantastic, but still on his waiting list for another..patience is indeed a virtue.
Ingvar

Dave Huggins
Ulfhednar England

[Endre Fodstad]

The danish bog finds will keep us happy for decades...or more. How can one not love excavation pictures like this:



...and this is just a small portion of Ilerup Ådal. The others - the Danish Thorsbjerg, Nydam, Ejsbøl, Tranebær, Vingsted, Porskjær, Hedelisker, Trinnemose, Dallerup, Villesmose, Vimose, Illemose, Kragehul, Sørup, Søborg Sø and Ballerup sømose and the swedish Finnestorp, Hassle-Bösarp, Knarremose, Balsmyr, Dalby, Skedemose and Gudingsåkrane - ALL have weapon offerings (some far richer than others, of course). Then there are the german ones...

[Epictetus]

With the wonders of modern science, DNA testing etc, I don't doubt that the origins of the victims could be ascertained, but it will probably be a question of time, resources and money as to whether anyone will bother......

If they find teeth (but I didn't seem them mentioned in the article), I think they can do isotope analysis on the enamel to determine regions the individual lived in.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The danish bog finds will keep us happy for decades...or more. How can one not love excavation pictures like this:



...and this is just a small portion of Ilerup Ådal. The others - the Danish Thorsbjerg, Nydam, Ejsbøl, Tranebær, Vingsted, Porskjær, Hedelisker, Trinnemose, Dallerup, Villesmose, Vimose, Illemose, Kragehul, Sørup, Søborg Sø and Ballerup sømose and the swedish Finnestorp, Hassle-Bösarp, Knarremose, Balsmyr, Dalby, Skedemose and Gudingsåkrane - ALL have weapon offerings (some far richer than others, of course). Then there are the german ones...

Holy B£tsh!t, batman..... hock: hock: Look at all that equipment!!!

Is any of Roman Provenance?
Those scabbards you mentioned Medicus Matt? Are they usable for a hispaniansis?

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

If I recall correctly in Jorgensen's 'Illerup Adal; Archeology as a Magic Mirror' he theorises the defeated army is from the Norwegian Peninusula, based upon the type of runes and a personal name
inscribed on a small number of objects. But it certainly would be interesting to find if this was the case with any dental analysis revealing further information.

I'm no expert but understand some of the sword blades and probably scabbards are of Roman provinance, likely to be imports, or returning auxillaries (always a favourite), but hilt garnitures appear to been decorated to local tastes as was common amongst germanic / nordic types.

Ingvar

Dave Huggins
Ulfhednar England

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Here is a link to the brilliant Patrick Barta's interpretation of an Illerup sword and Vimose scabbard

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/132-r ... rpus-v.jpg

breath taking as is all his work

Ingvar

Dave Huggins
Ulfhednar England

[Endre Fodstad]

If I recall correctly in Jorgensen's 'Illerup Adal; Archeology as a Magic Mirror' he theorises the defeated army is from the Norwegian Peninusula, based upon the type of runes and a personal name
inscribed on a small number of objects. But it certainly would be interesting to find if this was the case with any dental analysis revealing further information.

Jørgen Ilkjær, I think you mean. Yes, that is correct. The personal effects include bone combs and fire-strikers, which stylistically tie the armies in Ilerup A to what today is southern Norway and middle Sweden. Most of the more southern weapon offering finds are tied to the territories immediately south of modern Denmark, in modern-day Germany. The sword blades from Ilerup are regarded as roman imports, although only the ones that are maker's marked can really be identified as such.
The scabbards themselves are, as I understand it, not regarded as roman. However, there are several bandolier-fasteners, bandolier-toggles and scabbard-ends, that are of definite roman origin. The Vimose find is especially rich is such mounts - 230 of definite roman provenance.

The roman sword/scabbard find distribution is as follows in Ilerup A/B:

140 two-edged longswords
14 bandolier toggles
2 bandolier fasteners

Brief english article:
http://www.illerup.dk/documents/illerup_84.pdf

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Thanks for the correction...offshore at the moment , miles away from my library :oops:
Ingvar

Dave Huggins
Ulfhednar England
I

[Medicus matt]

I've spent a lot of time with volumes 11 & 12 of the illerup ådal reports. A lot of the chapes, sliders and other scabbard furniture found are definately of Imperial manufacture (either that or someone was making moulds from roman models).

Then, as Endre says, there's the large amount of 3rd C baldric fittings. ....it's all lovely stuff, especially the fragments of leather that still show the patterns of their decorative stitching.

I suspect that a lot of the complete scabbards themselves will prove to be imported, if anyone goes to the effort of examining the large amount of wooden remains (this may have already been done...my grasp of german is too poor to allow me to read the large amount of text easily...slow going with volume 11 in one hand and a big german dictionary in the other).

Looking at the hilt fittings, to my eye there's a combination of very roman looking spathas (like the one that Patrick has reconstructed) and some that are distinctly more northern european in styling.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks for the correction...offshore at the moment , miles away from my library :oops:
Ingvar

Dave Huggins
Ulfhednar England
I

Same here...where are you Dave?

Thanks for the responses gents....sorry haven't been on this thread for a few days...