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Polybius, horse archers arrows, roman armour, oh my.
#31
Quote:
marka:1yt5wbra Wrote:pila were part of the roman fighting style but have any actually been found in syria and cappadocia?

I don't think much of ANYthing has been found in those areas! There are archeological excavations, to be sure, but nothing like the concentration of military sites you find in western Europe. So just not a lot of military equipment in general, from that era. Once you get into the mid- to late first century AD, Roman armor and weapon finds are very much like those found in the west.

Matthew

.My thought was (pure speculation)that the roman infantry might have used a lighter javelin in the east as well.But have any pila been found for any period....i have googled&checked books.As far as i know no pila have been found at dura or in egypt,despite there being a lot of other finds
mark avons
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#32
Quote:http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_ac.htm

If you click on the link and go to Arrow Heads, I cannot imagine how C-2 would not penetrate mail, given a good clean shot.
This type of head was around at that time was it not? Or am I going down the wrong road again?

c2 is a bodkin and does resemble roman ones of this period.
given enough force it would have a high probability of penetrating.
mark avons
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#33
Quote:given enough force it would have a high probability of penetrating.
Given enough force a pencil has a high probability of penetrating.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#34
I feel a bit guilty writing so much but basically ignoring the topic (I can't help it, I love a good debate), so here are a few cents from me re: Carrhae...

Crassus enrolled many of his legionary troops from among his clients in Lucania, and they were no doubt equipped with standard late Republican Roman arms and armor, including pila. Some of the Roman cavalry were Gauls, but equipped with Roman arms and armor (probably mail armor, helmets, cavalry shields, spears and long swords). The arms of the light skirmishers is a bit more problematic, but they were likely drawn from among Eastern client kingdoms, and were probably equipped with throwing/thrusting spears and shields. The archers were probably local Syrian Arabs, who didn't use composite bows, but rather were equipped with relatively sophisitcated all wood self bows. It's possible none of the light troops were equipped with armor at all.

The most common Iranian arrowhead from around the time of Carrhae was the standard iron trilobate form, averaging in blade length (not including tang) from around 2.5 - 6.5 cm. It had the advantage of being more accurate than bilobate or leafblade forms, it caused a lot of damage on impact and it was difficult to remove. The fact that it was probably very tough to forge didn't stop it from becoming the standard war arrowhead of the Classical age (Simon James believes the trilobate form went out of use before the Middle Ages, but it in fact remained in use among steppe nomads like the Huns, Kirghiz, Turks and Mongols until at least the 13th century). However there were other Iranian arrowhead forms in use at the time of Carrhae as well. Besides bilobate and leafblade foms, they also had forms we'd call "bodkins" today, somewhat comparable in shape and size to London Museum catalog numbers 7, 8 and 10. They also had other heavy piled heads that don't really have Medieval counterparts. Most arrowheads were tanged, though a few did have sockets.

Though Dio and Plutarch seem to have drawn their accounts of the battle of Carrhae from different sources, both make plain the unexpected and frightening power of the Parthian bow. It's popular to downplay the effect of Parthian archery today, but it should be remembered that the Roman army at the beginning of the battle of Carrhae numbered some 34,000 fully armed and armored legionaries, 4,000 cavalry, and 4,000 light infantry (archers and skirmishers) for a total of some 42,000 men. The Parthians fielded only ten dragons of cavalry, specifially 1,000 heavily armored cataphracts (1 dragon) and 9,000 unarmored horse archers, whose only weapon was a bow and dagger. Though the Romans outnumbered the Parthians better than 4 to 1, at the end of the day less than 10,000 Romans managed to make it back to Syria alive, and 10,000 were captured. The rest lay dead on the sands of Mesopotamia. It's no wonder that after Carrhae it's the horse archer, not the cataphract, that haunts Roman literature.

Gregg
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#35
anybody know what the remaining cavalry and light infantry were?
its likely heat and lack of water not to mention arab raiding parties also played their part in thinning down the fugitives.

horse archers were a potent weapon although they could be countered effectively..both in the roman period and later.
mark avons
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#36
Looking at the bodkin style ... is there any source which indicates that it was designed as a mail penetrator?

It seems to me that it might be just a simple form of arrow head to form in forging...easier to hammer out that other types ... maybe cheap to produce when you need 1000s for military operations.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#37
Quote:Looking at the bodkin style ... is there any source which indicates that it was designed as a mail penetrator?

It seems to me that it might be just a simple form of arrow head to form in forging...easier to hammer out that other types ... maybe cheap to produce when you need 1000s for military operations.

Yes...I recall a mention of a purchase made by representatives of Philip II Augustus in 1205 (as I recall it) in Bruges. Alongside about thirty thousands close combat weapons and close to ten thousand pieces of armour and helmets, they purchased around 2000 crossbows with over half a million quarrels. This was in wartime, during the 1202-1214 "War of Bouvines" so some expediency must have been required! Big Grin
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#38
Quote:Looking at the bodkin style ... is there any source which indicates that it was designed as a mail penetrator?

It seems to me that it might be just a simple form of arrow head to form in forging...easier to hammer out that other types ... maybe cheap to produce when you need 1000s for military operations.

Me too. I think the weight of the arrowhead, rather than the shape, is a far better indicator of whether it was designed to be used against armour
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#39
Quote:The metallurgical properties are irrelevant compared to all the other problems with Indian mail. If you want to shoot arrows at it, please don't waste bandwith posting your results here. It will tell us nothing about how Roman mail might have performed.

So, aside from Eriks mail, where do you propose one find Roman mail? The exact composition metalurgically of which is?

I have seen quite a bit of Roman mail, as close as I am allowed, and can't see too much to say why it would have performed differently. Some of the joining rivets and riveted rings look
even more frail that the sets of Indian mail I own.

Could you possibly list all the many faults of the Indian mail, and then perhaps forward me a check so I can afford to waste some of Eriks work as target practice? :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#40
Quote:
marka:2d69csve Wrote:given enough force it would have a high probability of penetrating.
Given enough force a pencil has a high probability of penetrating.

That i doubt :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#41
Quote:
Dan Howard:pzq6yw2q Wrote:Given enough force a pencil has a high probability of penetrating.
That i doubt :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ever seen the carnage after a tornado? I've seen small wooden objects penetrate brick walls. Given enough force is the key.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#42
Which just proves my point entirely. The shape of the bodkin I am talking about will penetrate mail, fired from a decent bow, at any mail, Indian or Real Roman.
But I doubt firing a pencil from a bow would do the trick... :wink:

And yes I have actually, I was in Alberta in '87 when a massive twister hit Edmonton.


I've also seen 5" drillpipe punch through a steel container after being launched 200' in the air, and it is not exactly designed for punching through anything!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#43
Quote:Which just proves my point entirely, the shape of the bodkin I am talking about will penetrate mail, fired from a decent bow, at any mail, Indian or Real Roman.

We don't know that. You can do all kinds of tests with modern bows, modern arrows, and modern armor, and they really don't prove anything about the ancient equivalents. Without knowing exactly how much force a Parthian bow can impart (and all modern studies are necessarily theories, since no originals survive), and without knowing exactly how much force the mail can resist, there is no way to prove that any particular arrowhead can penetrate Roman mail. It is absolutely true that "given enough force" a blunt stick can go through armor, and therefore that given enough force an arrow can go through mail. What we simply do not know is *how often a bow was able to impart that much force*! A "decent bow" might simply not be strong enough to do that on any regular basis.

That said, even if an arrow strike has only a 1 percent chance of penetrating mail, given the number of arrows fired at the Romans, those legions are toast. But be careful of leaps in logic.

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#44
Well, to be honest, its not really much of a leap in logic...it's pure commonsense. And again you have added the information I neglected, as in the mass of arrows fired. As I said, "given a good shot', which I thought would be pretty self explanatory.....it can be assumed an arrow will penetrate mail. I don't feel I have made any great leap in logic, just prehaps assuming that I didn't need to teach anyone how to suck eggs on here, as most people are experts in one field or another?

Thats what happens when one Ass-u-mes....mea culpa!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#45
A partially surviving Parthian weapon from Baghouz has been reconstructed. Known as the Yrzi bow after the area of the cemetery where it was found, the reconstruction had a draw weight of approximately 60-70lb.

The Central Asian influence can be seen in the “Qum-Darya Bow”, found in a mass grave associated with a Chinese frontier post. Dated from the 1st century B.C. to the 3rd century A.D. similar ear and grip laths spread west with Hunnic influence. They are found in western Europe on such sites as Blucina and Wien-Simmering. Such bows used up to seven ear and grip laths, compared to four on the Yrzi bow.

But I agree broadly with Matthew, reconstructions of such weapons can't mirror the originals. And "tests" can't yeild objective data. There are just too many viables.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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