[greek enemies] Early Chartaginian army\'s

[Lessa]

Hello everybody. In the last times i often think to this argument.
How could it be the composition of phoenician armys in the VI-V sec. b.C. ?

For what i remember: iberians, balearic slingers, but also Italian mercenaries (Samnitians, Lucanians, Brutii) Siculi and Sicani, Elimi, Sardinians, and so on.
What kind of weapons and armour used this various ethnic groups? There were also carthaginians hoplites in this eterogenous army? What could be their aspect?

I hope that this is the right section for this argument.
I have posted here, because i think that there is a big difference with Annibal's army, and my question.

Cheers.

[hoplite14gr]

Your answer probably rely on the Carthagenian Army threads if i judge from your post.

The Phoinicic city states armies depiction are rare and they were not like the Carthagenian Army.
A coin from Tyros showing marines armed in "greek fashion" is one of the few examples.

Kind regards

[Lessa]

Your answer probably rely on the Carthagenian Army threads if i judge from your post.

The Phoinicic city states armies depiction are rare and they were not like the Carthagenian Army.
A coin from Tyros showing marines armed in "greek fashion" is one of the few examples.

Kind regards

i have made some research on the board but i havent found nothing.
A lot on Annibals and punic wars but nothing on earlyest Phoenician army's....

you have a pict of this coin?

[hoplite14gr]

http://emaroun.com/images/Phoenician%20Coin.jpg or http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... Coin2A.png

More details here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalo ... om/Coins2/

Seems "illyric helms" might have been used till mid 4th century B.C.

The marins apear as Greek Hoplites and the sea creature on the coin might have been shiled emblem.

The city of Tyros seems to have used the sphinx though. This city state had strong greek influences which might reflect on its warriors.

Hope I helped

[Justin of the New Yorkii]

I have posted here, because i think that there is a big difference with Annibal's army, and my question.

Cheers.

Yes, the army that Hannibal used was quite different from the early Carthaginian armies.

One example: The Carthaginians used chariots in battle up until the end of the 4th century BC. Then they switched to war elephants.

[Dutchhoplite]

From elsewhere on this site

Phoenicians:

(a) Warrior on a Phoenician ivory box from Carmona in Spain, seventh or sixth century. The equipment matches that of Xerxes' Phoenician marines ( Herodotus VII.89): " helmet nearly of Greek style, and linen cuirasses... shields without rims, and javelins" A reconstruction is shown in (b); the helmet is the Ionian type.
Prhaps in the same year that Xerxes' marines wore these linen cuirasses, Gelon of Syracuse captured linen cuirasses from their Carthaginian cousins ( Pausanias VI.19.7).

[Lessa]

I have posted here, because i think that there is a big difference with Annibal's army, and my question.
Cheers.

Yes, the army that Hannibal used was quite different from the early Carthaginian armies.
One example: The Carthaginians used chariots in battle up until the end of the 4th century BC. Then they switched to war elephants.

oh yeah, i've read it somewhere time ago.
the use of chariots may be done in plains and rocky deserts, but in places like my country thats simply impossible. A lot of rocky hills, forests, and swamps. I guess Sicily isn't much different.

http://emaroun.com/images/Phoenician%20Coin.jpg or http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... Coin2A.png
More details here:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalo ... om/Coins2/
Seems "illyric helms" might have been used till mid 4th century B.C.
The marins apear as Greek Hoplites and the sea creature on the coin might have been shiled emblem.
The city of Tyros seems to have used the sphinx though. This city state had strong greek influences which might reflect on its warriors.
Hope I helped

Well, that's very usefull! now i think that's the way i have to follow. Looking the east to know something about the west :wink:

From elsewhere on this site

Phoenicians:

(a) Warrior on a Phoenician ivory box from Carmona in Spain, seventh or sixth century. The equipment matches that of Xerxes' Phoenician marines ( Herodotus VII.89): " helmet nearly of Greek style, and linen cuirasses... shields without rims, and javelins" A reconstruction is shown in (b); the helmet is the Ionian type.
Prhaps in the same year that Xerxes' marines wore these linen cuirasses, Gelon of Syracuse captured linen cuirasses from their Carthaginian cousins ( Pausanias VI.19.7).

oh! THAT'S is what i was searching for!
But i'm not quite sure that the artist's version is correct.
First, in the original figure, the shield is too little, and looks too far from the body.
Second, the helmet is incomprehensible, i dont know how the author could draw that Ionian Helm based from that "thing". hock:


But...thats an extremely good help! Thanks to alls!

[barcid]

early armies compositions

5% chariot riders ,15% cavaly ( 50-60% numidian, 20-30% spanish ,10% liby phoenicean ,5% ish Nobles)numidians shielded others not & all javelin -light spear armed.

80% infantry. varies dependent on theatre of operations say . close fighting types 15-20% citizen spearmen ,30% Libyan spearmen ( armed as hoplites ), 50% merc. hoplites greek or italian .

for light inf.40% african light inf.(numidian & libyan javelin & shield) ,50% spanish light inf. 5-10% belearic slingers.

for useful warrior types 40% spanish close fighting inf. , 40% gallic close fighting inf . 20% mixed others . rubber figures yes but noone knows for sure! Ill find & post the cartho thread for you too

[barcid]

<!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=16751">viewtopic.php?f=25&t=16751<!-- l here you go cheers 8)

[Dutchhoplite]

oh yeah, i've read it somewhere time ago.
the use of chariots may be done in plains and rocky deserts, but in places like my country thats simply impossible. A lot of rocky hills, forests, and swamps. I guess Sicily isn't much different.

Well, they used them in Sicily. Just read Diodorus Siculus (16.66?95 ) and Plutarch's "The Life of Timoleon".

[Lessa]

early armies compositions
5% chariot riders ,15% cavaly ( 50-60% numidian, 20-30% spanish ,10% liby phoenicean ,5% ish Nobles)numidians shielded others not & all javelin -light spear armed.
80% infantry. varies dependent on theatre of operations say . close fighting types 15-20% citizen spearmen ,30% Libyan spearmen ( armed as hoplites ), 50% merc. hoplites greek or italian .
for light inf.40% african light inf.(numidian & libyan javelin & shield) ,50% spanish light inf. 5-10% belearic slingers.
for useful warrior types 40% spanish close fighting inf. , 40% gallic close fighting inf . 20% mixed others . rubber figures yes but noone knows for sure! Ill find & post the cartho thread for you too

Oh man, thanks for the link, too.
i will put an eye on it.

just a few questions:
How were armed citizen spearmen? They were from Carthago -ONLY-? What about the other colonies?

The armament at that time i suppose was aspis, greeks helmets (Corinthian type?) spear, and bronze muscle armour?
Or maybe it's too early for the linothorax?

[barcid]

Mother City citizen & settler Hoplites turned out, the Sacred Band are discribed as having bronze helms , Iron cuirass & white shields .

most of the citizen & settler Hoplites would be more like what we call medium close fighting infantry

A few with a mix of body armour types then in use eg, leather ,quilted ,linen linothorax type ,lamellar ,pectoral & so on,but most none.

Aspis for sure ,type ? .

Spear slightly shorter than generally used ,

swords straight & kopis type greek ones & a mix of spanish types too.

helms would also be a mix of types in use at the time,

im having a modified pilos made for my settler impression , like the one in my avatar.with a straight spanish sword ,aspis & shorter greek type spear , am also having an iron muscle type cuirass & thracian helm made to be a bling Sacred Band Dude. OK hope that helps good luck with your project research.

[PMBardunias]

most of the citizen & settler Hoplites would be more like what we call medium close fighting infantry
...Aspis for sure ,type ? .

I did some research on this not long ago for an article. I am convinced that in the 6th and probably down to 3rd century Carthaginian citizen infantry were much more like infantry in the levant than they were greek hoplites. Have you read "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", by Duncan Head ? Email me if not. The lamellar cuirasses seen famously in Etruscan art are probably styles imported from Carthage and bear a resemblance to those seen in the near east. The big difference that I see is that spear was probably shorter and the shield was not an aspis, but a round, deep shield with a boss and a single central grip.

That is not to eliminate greek influence, especially as the period progressed. Some elements are already very close, like the near eastern conical helm to both the Pilos and later Negau type helms, and may be easily intechangable. Those Etruscan Lamillar armours, even if constructed accordning to a near eastern method are patterned on a Tube and Yoke as well.

Some of our "evidence" for Carthaginian hoplites comes from a much later date or does not represent citizens. Also, I think the Chemtou relief should not be taken as a literal shield with a depressed face as some have rather than an artistic method to make the blazon prominent. There are many reasons why you would not want to dish in the face of a shield.

[Lessa]

most of the citizen & settler Hoplites would be more like what we call medium close fighting infantry
...Aspis for sure ,type ? .

The lamellar cuirasses seen famously in Etruscan art are probably styles imported from Carthage and bear a resemblance to those seen in the near east. The big difference that I see is that spear was probably shorter and the shield was not an aspis, but a round, deep shield with a boss and a single central grip.

That is not to eliminate greek influence, especially as the period progressed. Some elements are already very close, like the near eastern conical helm to both the Pilos and later Negau type helms, and may be easily intechangable. Those Etruscan Lamillar armours, even if constructed accordning to a near eastern method are patterned on a Tube and Yoke as well.

Any picture of this???

It's very interesting about the shield. Remembers to me the one that was used by the sea-peoples!

the eastern influence is confirm in the use of chariots still during the sicilian wars against greeks (as we talk before).
It's realistic that before, the influence in traditions, behaviour, warfare, weapons and armour from the motherland was much more.

[barcid]

no firm evidence cartho hoplite , Phoenician marine & 2 Etruscan chaps mix them & perhaps were close