How barbarian were the Barbarians?

[marka]

calling them barbarians never stopped the romans from nicking and copying their technology

[M. Demetrius]

calling them barbarians never stopped the romans from nicking and copying their technology

Hear, hear! If not for the stolen ideas, I wonder how advanced we'd consider the Roman culture.

[marka]

the term is probably down to the langauge
protogermanic probably sounded as strange to latin speakers as say dutch,plattdeutsch,norwegian or chinese does to english speakers today (and vice versa)(not a dig at any of those- just drawing a comparison).

[marka]

the romans main talent was probably taking somebody elses idea
then making it more practical and easier to mass produce.

the majority of their weapons technology (and i am guessing most of the rest of their technology)came from the celts,carthaginians,greeks,parthians and egyptians.

[Alanus]

the romans main talent was probably taking somebody elses idea
then making it more practical and easier to mass produce.

the majority of their weapons technology (and i am guessing most of the rest of their technology)came from the celts,carthaginians,greeks,parthians and egyptians.

From the above named by Marka, only the Greeks would be considered "non-barbarians." But we should remember that a good portion of Roman technology (and art) came from the Greeks. The Romans did create several techical milestones on their own-- improved bridge-spans, hydrolic cement, and superior roads-- none of which were used by "barbarian" nations.

[marka]

the romans main talent was probably taking somebody elses idea
then making it more practical and easier to mass produce.

the majority of their weapons technology (and i am guessing most of the rest of their technology)came from the celts,carthaginians,greeks,parthians and egyptians.

From the above named by Marka, only the Greeks would be considered "non-barbarians." But we should remember that a good portion of Roman technology (and art) came from the Greeks. The Romans did create several techical milestones on their own-- improved bridge-spans, hydrolic cement, and superior roads-- none of which were used by "barbarian" nations.

Quite.Marvelous and ingenious innovations.
Bridging the rhine for instance was probably beyond the resources or the desire and ambition of the celts.Who would have just used boats.
But this does prove my point
cement,roads and bridges existed long before rome,the romans just refined the existing technology found new materials,found new uses and used them on a larger scale.The egyptians had all three of those examples and the ancient assyrians as well.

[Alanus]

I imagine that for the Celts, bridging the Rhine would have been an avenue of inviting the Germans. :lol:
Yet the Celts developed chainmail (at the same time as the Sarmatians), and they gave the world soap and the first mechanical harvester (pushed by a pair of horses).

I think parts of the original Rhine bridge are still extant. The largest Roman bridge-- the longest in the world-- was Trajan's Stone Bridge across the Danube at Dobreta. It was designed by Apollodorus, who may have actually been Greek. As you say, the Romans improved upon ideas of others.

[D B Campbell]

It was designed by Apollodorus, who may have actually been Greek.

Worse than that; he was Syrian!

[Robert Vermaat]

I imagine that for the Celts, bridging the Rhine would have been an avenue of inviting the Germans. :lol:

Hardly. The Celts had already lived on both sides of the Rhine during centuries before Caesar decided that this wasn't the case. :twisted:

Yet the Celts developed chainmail (at the same time as the Sarmatians)

They did?? hock: The Sarmatians, I mean.. probably invented the wheel as well. And maybe quantumphysics. :wink:
Seriously though, I have a hard time believing that a nomadic culture invented something involving more likely to have been developed by a sedentary culture. Specialist smithing, I mean. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm totally not an expert in this field, but are nomads not liekly to trade for such goods instead of inventing it while still sleeping on horseback?
And, added to that, I think that the Sarmatians did not yet exist as an identifyable group when the Celts invented mail...

[marka]

I imagine that for the Celts, bridging the Rhine would have been an avenue of inviting the Germans. :lol:

Hardly. The Celts had already lived on both sides of the Rhine during centuries before Caesar decided that this wasn't the case. :twisted:

Yet the Celts developed chainmail (at the same time as the Sarmatians)

They did?? hock: The Sarmatians, I mean.. probably invented the wheel as well. And maybe quantumphysics. :wink:
Seriously though, I have a hard time believing that a nomadic culture invented something involving more likely to have been developed by a sedentary culture. Specialist smithing, I mean. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm totally not an expert in this field, but are nomads not liekly to trade for such goods instead of inventing it while still sleeping on horseback?
And, added to that, I think that the Sarmatians did not yet exist as an identifyable group when the Celts invented mail...

its difficult to know when exactly the sarmatians came into existence as they may have been known by another name as well.I take your point however-they probably would have traded furs or horses for metal armour.
It was probably more available as battles plunder as scythian and sarmatian mercenaries served several foreign employers.
the nomads had a talent for wasting very little.

[marka]

I imagine that for the Celts, bridging the Rhine would have been an avenue of inviting the Germans. :lol:

Hardly. The Celts had already lived on both sides of the Rhine during centuries before Caesar decided that this wasn't the case. :twisted:

Yet the Celts developed chainmail (at the same time as the Sarmatians)

They did?? hock: The Sarmatians, I mean.. probably invented the wheel as well. And maybe quantumphysics. :wink:
Seriously though, I have a hard time believing that a nomadic culture invented something involving more likely to have been developed by a sedentary culture. Specialist smithing, I mean. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm totally not an expert in this field, but are nomads not liekly to trade for such goods instead of inventing it while still sleeping on horseback?
And, added to that, I think that the Sarmatians did not yet exist as an identifyable group when the Celts invented mail...

sorry one other point the sarmatians and scythians were only semi nomadic and their subjects would have been settled farmers,their subjects were also quite adept at woodworking and other crafts,they or their subjects must have had facilities for the repairing & maintaining&producing weapons,armour and helmets on small scale.
There is evidence of the avars and scythians having permanent encampments-even (shock horror)attilla is supposed to have had one built. But you are probably correct in thinking most weapons were acquired by trade.
The trade links with greece,persia and asia minor were well established by alexander's time.

[Alanus]

What we don't know about the Sarmatians is a lot more than what we know about them. Recent archaeological finds have found Massagetae/proto-Alanic cauldrons (at Issyk Kul) welded by methods that can only be duplicated today by working in inert gas. We are talking about 400 BC.

At Filippovka, marvelous swords and an akinake have been found in kurgan 1. These blades were built by compound welding and then chased with gold. They are dated to the fourth century BC and excell beyond the western European workmanship of the same period. Yes, the Alans lived in wagons, not gers or houses, but they had developed a strong smithing technology that compared to the work of the Celts.

The items described above were not made by the Persians, but by a nomadic society that was far more sophisticated than once thought. 8)

Personally, I don't like the term "Sarmatians" for the same reason Vortigern Studies has given for 'Germans." These societies all had their special qualities and customs, too often lumped into a singular term. :roll: Oddly enough, the steppe cultures did reinvent the wheel by adding spokes, developing the chariot by 2000 BC. Even more strange, the steppe Iraninans and Celts appear to be parallel societies, developing identical tartaned tweeds, speaking similar languages, and using the chariot... plus forging great swords. Perhaps (just theory but not nutty) these two major tribes were the first to leave the Indo-European "homeland," one going far to the west, the other arriving along the borders of Mongolia-China.

[Ron Andrea]

Meanings of words change with time and with context. Since the Romans saw themselves as the inheritors or successors of Greek civilization, they probably started with the Greek (linguistic) definition and then adopted it to mean whoever was outside Pax Romana that campaign.

I like the wine/oil trader theory.

But he could also have poised as a Roman in exile (self or official) since we know, hard to believe as it may seem, that some Romans were on the outs with whoever ran the country/empire at any given time--like the Greeks who sided with the Persians during the various invasions of Greece. Both sides probably exploited whatever intelligence they could receive of the other and might not have been adverse to "welcoming" traitors, if for no other reason than to keep and eye on them and feed them disinformation. (If they got too troublesome, they could always suffer a fatal accident before they went home.) All speculation.

[Alanus]

I'm not sure where you are going with this, Ron. But on the subject of trade, we can seen how barbarians received those luxuries and wine. The trade routes in Asia-- east and west-- were well established before the Greeks entered the arena. The Pazryk Scythians, likely the ancestors of the Saka/Massagetae/Alans, were trading with the Persians and Chinese in the fifth century BC. Prior to the conquests of Alexander, the Sogdians and Bactrians opened up routes into India, and they were largely responsible for the development of what we now call the "Silk Road."

All of these tribes were "barbarians," perhaps not as barbaric as we might think. That seems to be the way Alexander saw it. After all, he married one of them. :lol:

[Ron Andrea]

I was just musing that "barbarism" like "civilization" is largely in the eye of the beholder.