11-11-2009, 08:37 PM
Hi Alan,
I also don't think these Goths were purchasing groceries as your grandparents did, thus for I'd rather go with Ovid:
Exercent illi sociae commercia linguae:
per gestum res est significanda mihi.
Other well-known military societies like the Huns had multiple identities and languages, so again, there is no precondition for Goths to speak only one language.
[attachment=2:396f3f7t]<!-- ia2 cernjachov.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:396f3f7t]
Please note the clusters of settlements from the middle and the upper basins of Dniester, Dnieper and Don. Both Danube valley and Crimea (which was reachable by water) are far enough and peripheric to Gothia.
The ancient authors often couldn't separate Germans from Celts or Goths from Scythians. For vast areas of Barbaricum they knew no mountains, rivers or cities. You have the map, put Gothic names on it. Try the same with Greek names on a map of Greece.
Here's another way to put it: for most authors there's a sharp difference between the geography of Barbaricum and that of the Roman space. For the two ecclesiastical authors you mentioned below the Goths were just living beyond the Danube. At the same time the same authors knew of many cities and regions inside the Empire.
Sure, for Romans Thracians were also barbarians, but since you mentioned it, in north-Danubian Gothia literacy was almost inexistent, and while Hellenistic Thrace is no match for Greece or Rome, there was however a small number of literate individuals. Here're two examples:
[attachment=0:396f3f7t]<!-- ia0 alexandrovo.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:396f3f7t]
[attachment=1:396f3f7t]<!-- ia1 sboryanovo.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:396f3f7t]
Those songs were written down in 12th-13th centuries or thereabouts, and probably not by families sitting around the fire. Sure, some people dream of pure and unchanging heroic Germanic oral traditions, as romanticism and nationalism still echo today, but the truth is by that time north-western Europe knew of Graeco-Roman literary traditions for a while. Of Beowulf it was argued by several scholars that has Christian, Latin-derived elements. The aforementioned Jordanes was quoted by Freculf, the bishop of Lisieux, around 840 and after that by many other authors. Jordanes was known in Sweden for some centuries before Carolus Lundius. Anyway, in early 13th century we also find Saxo Grammaticus and his Gesta Danorum, undeniably in debt to classical tradition.
So I see no solid reason to reject hypothetic Latin literary influences. A story of Goths and Huns doesn't need to travel on obscure Scythian paths.
There's no evidence Tervingi worshipped a sword, let alone one named Tyrfing.
Herodotus mentioned Scythians worshipping Ares by planting swords on the top of mounds, which is not quite the same thing.
Those links are not irrefutable, but rather speculative and unlikely. There are many possible scenarios, some quite trivial, e.g. a Germanic word interpreted by two different cultures came to mean two different things in two different contexts, a sword and the name of a tribe.
Quote:All of the above social groups were large, and they were not placed in the position of "survive or fall to the wayside." In my grandparents situation, they settled into a totally English-speaking population. There was no "little Italy." Everything was done in English (at the workplace, or just purchasing groceries), so it was either "fit in" or "stand aside." The same situation held for those "outsiders" who fell in with the Goths, but even more so. Because the Gothic gens was primarily a military one, and it extended into a migratory one until the 5th century. You either learned the prevailing language or you went nowhere in that military society. A case of not NEED TO, but HAVE TO.In your Scandinavian origin theory the Germanic speakers were settling among more numerous natives, not viceversa.
I also don't think these Goths were purchasing groceries as your grandparents did, thus for I'd rather go with Ovid:
Exercent illi sociae commercia linguae:
per gestum res est significanda mihi.
Other well-known military societies like the Huns had multiple identities and languages, so again, there is no precondition for Goths to speak only one language.
Quote:I would say he knew a lot about them, just in the fact they lived along a well-trodden trade route. Trade and its exchange of commodoties gave all people (no matter where they lived) "news" of happenings and populations hundreds of miles away. It was slower than it is today, but the same principle. Eusebious,Ulfilas, and the Catholics, extended Christianity right into the Crimea, well beyond the Dnieper. Don't be so hard on the ancient authors. They knew populations and river names thousands of kilometers away from where they lived. Enough that Stabo correctly identified and geographically-placed the Sacae who lived beyond Sogdiana.I don't think you understood what I meant. Here's a slightly outdated map of ?ernjachov settlements and cemetaries:
[attachment=2:396f3f7t]<!-- ia2 cernjachov.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:396f3f7t]
Please note the clusters of settlements from the middle and the upper basins of Dniester, Dnieper and Don. Both Danube valley and Crimea (which was reachable by water) are far enough and peripheric to Gothia.
The ancient authors often couldn't separate Germans from Celts or Goths from Scythians. For vast areas of Barbaricum they knew no mountains, rivers or cities. You have the map, put Gothic names on it. Try the same with Greek names on a map of Greece.
Here's another way to put it: for most authors there's a sharp difference between the geography of Barbaricum and that of the Roman space. For the two ecclesiastical authors you mentioned below the Goths were just living beyond the Danube. At the same time the same authors knew of many cities and regions inside the Empire.
Quote:Well, we only have Sozemus and Socrates Scholasticus as our sources, so they could have been "lying sacks of ----," but then again maybe they were honest in claiming that the Christianization of the Goths (ie Tyrfingi) was due to Ulfilas and Fritigern.The mass conversion advocated by Sozomen and Socrates Scholasticus and the general ecumenical optimism of clerics are not confirmed by evidence, as the archaeological traces of Christianity in Gothia are poor.
Quote:Oh? I never realized that the Thracians and Dacians were 100 % literate, and I don't suppose the Romans ever called them "barbarians" either, eh?Why the outburst? Roman Dacia was a literate province (we know thousands on inscriptions on stone, not to mention on pottery, wax tablets, gems, etc.).hock:
Sure, for Romans Thracians were also barbarians, but since you mentioned it, in north-Danubian Gothia literacy was almost inexistent, and while Hellenistic Thrace is no match for Greece or Rome, there was however a small number of literate individuals. Here're two examples:
[attachment=0:396f3f7t]<!-- ia0 alexandrovo.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:396f3f7t]
[attachment=1:396f3f7t]<!-- ia1 sboryanovo.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:396f3f7t]
Quote:Oh, I'm sure that all the families in Iceland sat around the fire reading Jordanes and Tacitus. Especially since it was dark outside for 6 months. Give me and the readers of this thread a break, Rumo. If the Roman classics were so popular in Iceland, Norway, and Sweden, why weren't those stories incorporated into their sagas. Certainly, they weren't written down until the middle ages, but they described tales that occurred in the old homeland, even though they didn't reach Iceland until after 870. The sagas-- including the Hervar Saga-- were sung since man first opened his mouth to stick his foot in it! :lol:
Those songs were written down in 12th-13th centuries or thereabouts, and probably not by families sitting around the fire. Sure, some people dream of pure and unchanging heroic Germanic oral traditions, as romanticism and nationalism still echo today, but the truth is by that time north-western Europe knew of Graeco-Roman literary traditions for a while. Of Beowulf it was argued by several scholars that has Christian, Latin-derived elements. The aforementioned Jordanes was quoted by Freculf, the bishop of Lisieux, around 840 and after that by many other authors. Jordanes was known in Sweden for some centuries before Carolus Lundius. Anyway, in early 13th century we also find Saxo Grammaticus and his Gesta Danorum, undeniably in debt to classical tradition.
So I see no solid reason to reject hypothetic Latin literary influences. A story of Goths and Huns doesn't need to travel on obscure Scythian paths.
Quote:I suppose we could use the population I alluded to earlier. However the sword was actually real, as in historical, not mythical. Tyrfing was planted in a mound of ground, or sometimes a pile of stones, by the populace who worshiped it-- the Gothic Tyrfingi. But additionally, it was also worshiped by the Alans and all Sarmatian tribes going all the way back to the Scythians. See Ammianus and Herodutus on this matter.
There's no evidence Tervingi worshipped a sword, let alone one named Tyrfing.
Herodotus mentioned Scythians worshipping Ares by planting swords on the top of mounds, which is not quite the same thing.
Quote:Like I said earlier. The Tyrfing-Tryfingi-Hervar-Saga link is irrefutable in the standard world of common sense and logic. Beyond that world, it can be argued by "reachers"... such as all those Icelanders reading thousands of scribal copies of Jordanes before going to bed.I'd rather not be part of that world of "common sense".
Those links are not irrefutable, but rather speculative and unlikely. There are many possible scenarios, some quite trivial, e.g. a Germanic word interpreted by two different cultures came to mean two different things in two different contexts, a sword and the name of a tribe.
Drago?
