06-06-2009, 07:19 AM
From what I've found, it appears this is a puzzle that can't be solved. I haven't found any modern historians who will go so far as to say they are definitely two different peoples, and most aren't even comfortable saying firmly that they are one and the same.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's a good point. These guys like Herodotus were getting their information from individuals, often with some language barrier, and the term that particular person decided to use in that particular conversation could lead to a lot of confusion.
And personal history might figure into the description as well... for example, if an American asks his fellow American where he's from, he might respond "Oh, well I'm Italian," or "I'm Irish," because they take the question to mean "where are your ancestors from?"
But if an American is in a foreign city or speaking to someone from another country, he will probably just say "I'm American" for brevity's sake.
I used to live next to a guy who came from Bosnia, but he was actually an Albanian. But if you asked where he was from, he would say "I'm from Bosnia." It wasn't until several months after I met him that I learned he didn't actually consider himself Bosnian at all, and obviously his story became much more complex.
So if, say, the Getae were in fact a distinct tribe that assimilated into a greater Dacian people, and a Getae man happened to have a conversation with Cassius Dio, he might simply say something like "I'm Dacian" just to avoid confusion.
Herodotus, book 1 202, "After the conquest of Assyria, Cyrus' next desire was to subdue the Massagetae, whose country lies far to the eastward beyond the Araxes, opposite the Issedones; they are reputed to be a numerous and warlike people and some suppose them to be of Scythian nationality."
On a lighter note, this brings me to one of the more humorous passages in Herodotus a few lines later:
"[The Massagetae] have discovered another tree whose fruit has a very odd property; for when they have parties and sit round a fire, they throw some of it onto the flames, and as it smokes it burns like incense, and the smell of it makes them drunk just like wine does the Greeks; and they get more and more intoxicated as more fruit is thrown on until the jump up and start dancing and singing. Such are the reports on how these people live."
Herodotus gets back on track and seems to get it right: "On the west, then, the Caspian is bounded by the Caucasus; eastward lies an immense tract of flat country over which the eye wanders till it is lost in the distance. The greater part of this region is occupied by the Massagetae, whom Cyrus wished to attack."
He got that terrain right; I don't know if you've ever checked that out on Google Maps, but photographs of that place almost look like another planet. It's like an ocean of soil.
But then, as you say, he puts the Araxes in the wrong place: "Cyrus, therefore, having failed to achieve his object by cunning, turned to open force, and advancing to the Araxes made his assault upon the Massagetae by bridging the river for his men to cross and constructing upper-works on the ferry boats."
The Araxes is now called the Araz, and it runs through Armenia, Azerbaijan and the northwestern tip of Iran. It's not on the eastern side of the Caspian, so there would be no reason for Cyrus to cross it if he wanted to conquer that "immense tract of flat country" in question.
The one Cyrus crossed was the Syr Darya.
Quote: A Jew would be called, and called himself, a Judaean when he was talking to a foreigner, but would call himself, and was called, an Israelite in a discussion with a compatriot.
Just like today, ethnic labels were never fixed.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's a good point. These guys like Herodotus were getting their information from individuals, often with some language barrier, and the term that particular person decided to use in that particular conversation could lead to a lot of confusion.
And personal history might figure into the description as well... for example, if an American asks his fellow American where he's from, he might respond "Oh, well I'm Italian," or "I'm Irish," because they take the question to mean "where are your ancestors from?"
But if an American is in a foreign city or speaking to someone from another country, he will probably just say "I'm American" for brevity's sake.
I used to live next to a guy who came from Bosnia, but he was actually an Albanian. But if you asked where he was from, he would say "I'm from Bosnia." It wasn't until several months after I met him that I learned he didn't actually consider himself Bosnian at all, and obviously his story became much more complex.
So if, say, the Getae were in fact a distinct tribe that assimilated into a greater Dacian people, and a Getae man happened to have a conversation with Cassius Dio, he might simply say something like "I'm Dacian" just to avoid confusion.
Quote:Herodotus was the first to mention the Massagetae. Two later historians, Dio and Ammianus, qualified the tribe as "the Alans, once called the Massagetae." Interestingly, Herodotus gave their location by naming the river where they dwelt (the actual name escapes me), BUT he gave the wrong river. This error, only mentioned once, transformed the Massagetae/Alans far to the west... where Jordanes repeated the error, placed them at the mouth of the Danube, called them "Getae," and claimed that the seaport of Tomis was named after their ancient queen, Tomyris.
Herodotus, book 1 202, "After the conquest of Assyria, Cyrus' next desire was to subdue the Massagetae, whose country lies far to the eastward beyond the Araxes, opposite the Issedones; they are reputed to be a numerous and warlike people and some suppose them to be of Scythian nationality."
On a lighter note, this brings me to one of the more humorous passages in Herodotus a few lines later:
"[The Massagetae] have discovered another tree whose fruit has a very odd property; for when they have parties and sit round a fire, they throw some of it onto the flames, and as it smokes it burns like incense, and the smell of it makes them drunk just like wine does the Greeks; and they get more and more intoxicated as more fruit is thrown on until the jump up and start dancing and singing. Such are the reports on how these people live."
Herodotus gets back on track and seems to get it right: "On the west, then, the Caspian is bounded by the Caucasus; eastward lies an immense tract of flat country over which the eye wanders till it is lost in the distance. The greater part of this region is occupied by the Massagetae, whom Cyrus wished to attack."
He got that terrain right; I don't know if you've ever checked that out on Google Maps, but photographs of that place almost look like another planet. It's like an ocean of soil.
But then, as you say, he puts the Araxes in the wrong place: "Cyrus, therefore, having failed to achieve his object by cunning, turned to open force, and advancing to the Araxes made his assault upon the Massagetae by bridging the river for his men to cross and constructing upper-works on the ferry boats."
The Araxes is now called the Araz, and it runs through Armenia, Azerbaijan and the northwestern tip of Iran. It's not on the eastern side of the Caspian, so there would be no reason for Cyrus to cross it if he wanted to conquer that "immense tract of flat country" in question.
The one Cyrus crossed was the Syr Darya.
