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Some Aspis Revisionism
#31
Quote:Usually new hoplites who are quick to lock shileds fumble and get "left-under right". Our new recruits usully to that until properly drilled.

Because this is the most natural way to do it. I seriously think you give up on it too fast. First, I think many of your shields are too large for their bearers (surely the one I cut and pasted above was) and they extend too far to the right past the man's body. The blow to the elbow you describe should be next to impossible if you form square to the enemy with a shield that fits the body properly, not extending far to the right. It doesn't have to extend to his right at all because he is getting in behind your shield to cover his right. Secondly, wrap your arm- hoplites did, maybe this is why.

Quote:When advancing against an enemy phallanx you advance "sideways" Please see our video.
We still working on advansing jogging as the Athenians did in Marathon vs archers.


This is confusing, since you obviously cannot "jog" sideways, you must advance frontally. Maybe there is confusion about the course of events, so I will detail them. You line up in a phalanks. It is now that you form as I described, frontally, about the space of an aspis apart.

You charge (late 5th c), running or jogging, and since the average Athenian was not a member of the Bersiglieri band, you surely lose formation if not between ranks, then along them, and need to reform a straight line when you stop just short of the enemy line. The men now blow their aspis-width spacing because they are trying to cover themselves witht he shield next to them. I think this reformation is best done as it is done "naturally" by coming up behind the shield to the man on your right. Any damage to your elbow at this point is more than outweighed by the immanent death that awaits you if you have your arm held away from your body and someone else's rim on your chest when the ranks pack in tight. You have experienced the first and so fear it, but not the second and so don't appreciate it (no modern man has). Any terminal advance at this point is a very short distance and you can actually stand any way you wish at this point for doratismos because you have properly set the spacing and overlap for when the ranks close and collide and you get squashed up against your own shield.



Quote:The last 2 hoplites at the bottom of the image show one gue while stiking and another resting the spear on the shiled rim.

Not sure what that referred to.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#32
Gentlemen,

We have had this discussion before! It is old ground and I for one am more interested in seeing aspects of the Aspis discussed, rather than wander off-topic.

On the basis that one picture is worth a thousand words, here is a schematic on how I believe Hoplites stood, held their aspides and fought.......(attached)

Paul B.'s method of overlapped shields would, apart from anything else, not allow dexterity or proper use of the shield - two things no sane warrior would give up.

Finally, I have opined before that pyknosis/close order and synaspismos/locked shields were more or less the same for Hoplites because of the size of the shield ; unlike the Macedonian synaspismos, with their smaller pelta which allowed only half a cubit/18"/ 45 cm frontage per man - they most certainly stood side on, because you can't grasp a two-handed pike and stand 'square'. Polybius tells us too that on occasion rear ranks 'pushed', so it can be done and evidently was. In principle, the Macedonian Phalanx evolved from the Hoplite and was not radically different - yet another flaw in Paul B's hypothesis.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#33
Quote:On the basis that one picture is worth a thousand words, here is a schematic on how I believe Hoplites stood, held their aspides and fought.......(attached)

Square to the fore exactly as I described. Not the fencer's stance (wrong arm forward) that some authors have advocated and some art shows.

Quote:Paul B.'s method of overlapped shields would, apart from anything else, not allow dexterity or proper use of the shield - two things no sane warrior would give up.

No, not my method, any method of overlapping limits the utility of the shield in parrying. Evidently the romans in fulcum and anglo-saxons in board-weal were insane. Right over left is no worse, in fact in many ways better, that left over right.

Quote:Finally, I have opined before that pyknosis/close order and synaspismos/locked shields were more or less the same for Hoplites because of the size of the shield ; unlike the Macedonian synaspismos, with their smaller pelta

Highly unlikely given the fact that "synaspismos" is impossible when holding a sarissa in your left hand, indicating that the term was probably literal for the hoplites and figurative for sarissaphoroi.

Quote:which allowed only half a cubit/18"/ 45 cm frontage per man - they most certainly stood side on, because you can't grasp a two-handed pike and stand 'square'. Polybius tells us too that on occasion rear ranks 'pushed', so it can be done and evidently was. In principle, the Macedonian Phalanx evolved from the Hoplite and was not radically different - yet another flaw in Paul B's hypothesis.

Not radically different??? The sarissa is stabbed by advancing the whole body and thrusting the arms forwards in unison, the dory by torquing the body- just as you drew. If you do not end up with your body square to the foe you are not getting the power out of this torquing motion.

If you stand aspis to aspis with a man in front of you and he is squared on and you are side on, you will soon be looking up at him from the ground. I spent years of my young life putting people on the ground in just this manner, so I am quite confident in the outcome. This is the first thing any lineman is taught. You may be better able to spear fence side on, though I doubt it since you give up too much in reach, but not push.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#34
Quote:Finally, the aspis is best used 1/3 to 2/3s on to the opponent--more edge on than fron on, in may cases. You parry with the edge--you can thrust with it too, and use the strength of the porpax desgn to get it back on your shoulder.

As I said earlier, this is completely consistant with the art. I have problems with it because it to a great extent eliminates the whole "shield wall" element of a phalanx, but if we simply look at how a man in hoplite panoply should fight there is evidence by way of analogy to support this. I am constantly looking for analogous combat styles or even analogous elements for which we have better textual support in order the bolster our understanding of hoplite combat. There are some simmilarities to fencing, not modern sport fencing (there is the side-on stance), but period fencing. In De Grassi's fencing manual of 1594, he gives advice on how best to fence with a rapier and large round shield. His experience dovetails nicely with Christian's above.

Quote:IF a man would so beare the rounde Target, that it may cover the whole bodie, and yet nothing hinder him from seeing his enimie, which is a matter of great importance, it is requisite, that he beare it towardes the enimie, not with the convexe or outward parte thereof, altogither equall, plaine or even, neither to holde his arme so bowed, that in his elbowe there be made (if not a sharpe yet) at least a straight corner. For besides that (by so holding it) it wearieth the arme: it likewise so hindereth the sight, that if hee would see his enimie from the brest downwardes, of necessitie he must either abase his Target, or beare his head so peeping forwardes, that it may be sooner hurt than the Target may come to warde it. And farther it so defendeth, that onely so much of the bodie is warded, as the Target is bigg, or little more, becau?e it cannot more then the halfe arme, from the elbowe to the ?houlder, which is verie little, as everie man knoweth or may perceive: So that the head shal be warded with great paine, and the thighes shal altogether remaine discovered, in such sort, that to save the bellie, he shal leave all the rest of the bodie in ieopardie. Therefore, if he would ?o holde the said Target, that it may well defend all that part of the bodie, which is from the knee upwardes, and that he maie see his enimie, it is requi?ite that he beare his arme, if not right, yet at lea?t bowed so little, that in the elbowe there be framed so blunt an angle or corner, that his eyebeames passing neere that part of the circumference of the Target, which is neere his hande, may ?ee his enimie from the head to the foot. And by holding the saide convexe parte in this manner, it shall warde all the left ?ide, and the circumference neere the hande shall with the least motion defend all the right side, the head and the thighes. And in this maner he shall keepe his enimie in sight & defend all that parte of the body, which is allotted unto the said Target. Therefore the said Target ?hall be born, th arme in a manner so streight towards the left ?ide, that the eye?ight may passe to beholde the enimie without mooving, for this onely occasion, either the head, or the Target.

This position, along with the underhand grip, I would easily support for the loose combat following a rout and persuit, but I still am sceptical about its use in formed phalanx. A formation like a phalanx is something more than the sum of its parts, thus we need to be careful not to simply add individuals together doing what works best for them when they are alone. Again, this could be completely correct, or correct for some periods of the phalanx or some situations and not others. I just happened to have De Grassi saved and remembered the quote, but there are many such fencing manuals and maybe some further research would yeild fruit. I'll attach the image from the manual below.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#35
Men,you just need to build an accurate panoply and hold a spear. Then come together and push against eachother.And I need to be there to be taking photos. THAT would be a lot of fun! Then,you need to come in Marathon but i leave this part for Christian to promote Big Grin
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#36
What he said! Smile ) )
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#37
Seconded !! .... Smile D lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#38
Quote:LOL!



[Image: 4214_105723956203_681611203_2679699_5374034_n.jpg]

I will be the first to say that the metalsmith MIGHT have been using three d to represent flat paint--but if so, I'd expect him to use incised lines or even engraving, vice deep molded bas-relief. Besides, when you look at all the shield devices from Olympia--

This one was found in Dodona, Epeiros, near Ioannina, its present day capital. Prof. Dakaris found it when he excavated the site in the '60s
Kostas Papadopoulos
History fans like myself should keep these wise words in mind
When in doubt about sources, trustworthiness or what the writer of what you read about is really after, I \'d advise Ktesias test after that Münchhausen of ancient Greece.
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#39
Last week, just before we did our first event, I finally received a book I ordered a little over a year ago--Peter C. Bol, OF XVII, Argive Shields, from the Walter de Gruyter series of Olympia digs in German.

First, a little annoyance. This book contains more info on the aspis then all other sources combined. Why was it published in German? This is 2009, not 1890.

Okay, so yesterday I waded through it with a German linguist.

I recommend that everyone who plans to build an aspis buy a copy. It has more shields and bits of shields then all other sources combined, and then some, and it effortlessly slays all kinds of theories while, of course, asking more questions than it answers.

Okay, that said, let's look at the good bits.

This is exhibit A 244, plate 2
[Image: 3683629098_2dee96f45b.jpg?v=0]

Note the remnants of fitted, narrow boards that bed into the rim. this is the "boat-hull" construction I've talked about elsewhere. Some unhelpful academic in the Cambridge History of the Archaic managed to mis-identify this fragment as being the shield at Baden, which cost me 6 months of research time, but you'll see the Baden shield later.

Here's a nice smoking gun on the subject of Porpax and Antelabe placement.

[Image: 3682816531_7432fe47b4.jpg?v=0]

Note that, as the mounts are riveted through the wood and into the face of the shield, every mount can be placed wherever the owner wishes. In fact, now I have several examples of antelabes placed away from the rim. Sorry--that means there's no reason to ever place a porpax off center. Also note that the porpax and--the band of bronze that runs top- to bottom on most shields ont he line of the porpax--is the binding strap that holds all the boards together, and thuis it would be even more unlikely that a workman would place it off center and risk some of his boards warping. That shile dband isn't decorative, at least int he early times (550 BC).

Finally, many of the porpaxes and antelabes are formed quite simply of sheet bronze. Here's a photo the illustrates how thin and how well worked.

[Image: 3683629312_3f53aa4450.jpg?v=0]

Almost every inch of bronze on every fitting and surface is extensively repoussed, as noted earlier in this thread. Now, again--these are the best sheilds of their generation, or they wouldn't be at Olympia! But the decoration is staggering.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#40
And just for fun, here's the Baden Shield, which has not been published outside of a single article in German. These phots are with the permission of the museum, reproduced with their permission, and as I paid the freight I'll ask politely that y'all not re-publish them beyond your own personal use without the permission of the museum. (not me!)

[Image: 3683629072_c6ff685a51.jpg?v=0]

[Image: 3683628908_e4c3df4052_m.jpg]

It's nice--maybe too nice, and I've already run into one chap who has doubts about it. It does appear to have been made in pices rather than forged and hammered out of a single lump of bronze--if authentic, that would be GOOD NEWS for those of us fabricating bronze faced shields. Don't get excited by the textile adhering to the inside--that's a museum restoration technique from the past.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#41
Further to my last--since I started this project of documenting existing aspides, various pals int he world Art mob have suggested to me that there's at least 40, and perhaps as many as 100, existing aspides in private collections. I gather that this isn't news to many of you, but it was sure news to me.
If any of you know the location of any of these shields, do tell. Please!
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#42
Quote:Sorry--that means there's no reason to ever place a porpax off center.

Well, it means that placing the porpax off-center because of limitations in arm length is unlikely. If the shield itself had to sit in a certain orientation, or if there is a benefit to having the elbow/shoulder closer to the mid-line, then this has no bearing.

Quote:Also note that the porpax and--the band of bronze that runs top- to bottom on most shields ont he line of the porpax--is the binding strap that holds all the boards together, and thuis it would be even more unlikely that a workman would place it off center and risk some of his boards warping. That shile dband isn't decorative, at least int he early times (550 BC).

Do you think that moving the band of the porpax so that its left edge is along the center-line, as opposed to a point in the middle of the band, is enough to substantially weaken the shield?

Any scanned images of aspises that can be shared would be of great help. Perhaps sent privately instead of posted. That image of the construction alone makes me covet the book.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#43
From the book, can you definitively describe the profile of a cross-section of the wooden core? Is it thicker on its face than at the "shoulder" section where it curves steeply or the reverse?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#44
Quote:And just for fun, here's the Baden Shield, which has not been published outside of a single article in German. These phots are with the permission of the museum, reproduced with their permission, and as I paid the freight I'll ask politely that y'all not re-publish them beyond your own personal use without the permission of the museum. (not me!)

[Image: 3683629072_c6ff685a51.jpg?v=0]

[Image: 3683628908_e4c3df4052_m.jpg]

It's nice--maybe too nice, and I've already run into one chap who has doubts about it. It does appear to have been made in pices rather than forged and hammered out of a single lump of bronze--if authentic, that would be GOOD NEWS for those of us fabricating bronze faced shields. Don't get excited by the textile adhering to the inside--that's a museum restoration technique from the past.

Just out of curiosity, what's the article it's published in?
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#45
Mentioned in 'Warfare and Hoplites" article of The Cambridge Companion ot Archaic Greece. The article cited is Seiterle 1982 and I have the full citation somewhere on this desk... The article was published in the Journal of the Antikenmuseum Basel, if that helps.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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