Testing a Cheiroballista 2 - Gory Images!!!

[Nerva]

scorpions were used in a kind of sniper role, and were accurate enough that you could take out a lone target with one. I wonder if that is true? It seems to me that just assigning these machines to a mass target kind of role is contrary to what they should be capable of.

Hi Dane, I'm not suggesting that such machines were only for shooting at mass targets. I'm saying that there is a range at which sharp shooting with such machines becomes more a matter of chance than skill. What the effective range of such machines is, when used for this purpose, is dependent on a number of factor including the skill of the operator, but at 100m+ I think even the finest operator would be challenged to hit a small target.

Making sure the stand for your machine is totally stable may help, Martin. Even a tiny little bit of wobble is going to ruin your shot groups.

I think the stability of our platform is the least of our worries. Once we improve our basic accuracy to the point where we can hit a barn door at 100m I'll be happy

Remember that a Roman artillaryman was in for the long haul, so had many years to practice and hone his skills

I think that is speculative Dane, we really have no idea of how artillery was manned in the 1st/2nd centuries.

We weekend (ancient) warriors can't approach that kind of lifetime of committment and knowledge from just practicing with our weapons, year in and year out.

You can say that again :wink:

I agree with Duncan. They wouldn't simply place a lone machine or battery out by itself, without lots of infantry protection, in some very well selected position. Even with all that protection, I am guessing that the training of a Roman "cannon cocker" would have, like modern armies, encompassed every position in a crew, so as crew members are killed or wounded, they could still continue in the battle.

I fully agree.

If you decide to dry out and process sinew or tan hides, expect the neighbours to become aware of you, too.

Oh yeah. I've done a couple of hides. I didn't have to wait for my neighbours to complain. My wife was on my case lone before then, and still is :oops:

[barcid]

artilery for sure would not have been left exposed its useless if not supported,But if in fixed position firing over know ground with range markers & the elevation required to land at that point known they may take out an single target e.g. placed to guard a river crossing or entrance way to field works or fort .

i believe they were a Terror weapon ie.used to mess with your mind .lets imagine your with your warband mates at 150meters giving the legion the verbal serve before attacking & they bump off 1,2,or ? of your mates & you have 120 or so meters to close before you can interfere with the carnage ,You would think twice no matter how elite or how much elan you may have.

we became very efficient with our loading & aiming drills & could sustain a good accurate rate of fire,so it can be done with good training and dedication ,But having been on the recieving end of artillery fire you can not answer ,you run away much faster once you have lightened your bowels or you hug the ground & pray to your fav. God ,usually your mum :wink:

[M. Demetrius]

Nerva, what are the dimensions of your bolt and bolt heads? I'm supposed to make some for someone, but I don't know what size yet.

Thanks, in advance.

[Nerva]

Salve David!

The cheiro uses 9" bolts. I'm in France at the moment but I'll email you the basic design once I get back home at the week-end. The 3 span uses either a 21" or 27" bolt. There's a bit more power in a 3-span than our cheiro.

[M. Demetrius]

Gratias multas, Nerva.
Buon viaggio, fratello.

[P. Clodius Secundus]

I'll have to look back over old posts, but a while back I recall arguing that the most likely tactical use of the winched/stand mounted weapons (generally called carroballistae) mentioned in Vegetius and evidenced on Trajan's and Marcus Aurelius' columns was as a long range area supression weapon using high-angle plunging fire. The general response was "Silly boy, everyone knows that they were used as low-trajectory "sniper" weapons. Field of view was so important that they moved the field frames far apart and added an arch to the upper brace." For my two Denarii I still believe that the frames were moved to gain the increase in power and range that an inswinger provides, and that the arch was added to allow the operator room to reach forward along the canalis fundus to hook the claw over the bowstring. If you could outrange slingers and archers you might be able to get your artillery out of the traditional defensive/siege role and use them in the field. Hell, you could even mount them in a cart and make them mobile. Of couse that's just speculation... :roll: The "sniper" role would seem more appropriate for a hand held weapon like Herron's Cheiroballistra.
All the same Nerva, thanks for posting some real numbers and photos. We will probably never know quite how they did it, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn.

[D B Campbell]

... the most likely tactical use of the winched/stand mounted weapons mentioned in Vegetius and evidenced on Trajan's and Marcus Aurelius' columns was as a long range area supression weapon using high-angle plunging fire. The general response was "Silly boy, everyone knows that they were used as low-trajectory "sniper" weapons.

My position has always been that catapults shot directly at their target, in order to exploit available energy and hit fast and hard. I'd love to see proof that a long-ranging plunging barrage (so-called mortar fire) would be militarily effective. But the projectiles in use -- wooden arrows or roughly hewn stones -- rapidly lose energy over long distance. And long shots allow wind drift to come into play.

I'm not sure about "sniper fire", but a catapult is only effective if it hits something. (May seem obvious, but a mortar shell doesn't actually need to hit anything to do damage.) I've always been of the opinion that "plunging fire" would be wasteful -- maybe you can show me otherwise?

For my two Denarii I still believe that the frames were moved to gain the increase in power and range that an inswinger provides, ...

Surprisingly, this is still debated. Seems obvious to you and me. But certain other parties are unconvinced.

... and that the arch was added to allow the operator room to reach forward along the canalis fundus to hook the claw over the bowstring.

I agree that this point is becoming more obvious. (I think, maybe, it was your good self who first suggested this?) Of course, this explanation is only valid for inswingers, so those certain parties who dispute this must find an alternative explanation for the wide frame.

If you could outrange slingers and archers you might be able to get your artillery out of the traditional defensive/siege role and use them in the field. Hell, you could even mount them in a cart and make them mobile.

Hmmm. You still need the slingers to provide cover for the artillery. And unless they're on roller skates, they can't keep up with your carroballista! I tend to believe that the importance of the carroballista is in rapid deployment to a fixed position, rather than to provide some kind of roving missile platform.

The "sniper" role would seem more appropriate for a hand held weapon like Herron's Cheiroballistra.

Agreed. Although I'd hesitate to suggest it in the complete absence of supporting evidence!

[P. Clodius Secundus]

My position has always been that catapults shot directly at their target, in order to exploit available energy and hit fast and hard. I'd love to see proof that a long-ranging plunging barrage (so-called mortar fire) would be militarily effective. But the projectiles in use -- wooden arrows or roughly hewn stones -- rapidly lose energy over long distance. And long shots allow wind drift to come into play....I'm not sure about "sniper fire", but a catapult is only effective if it hits something. (May seem obvious, but a mortar shell doesn't actually need to hit anything to do damage.) I've always been of the opinion that "plunging fire" would be wasteful -- maybe you can show me otherwise? You still need the slingers to provide cover for the artillery. And unless they're on roller skates, they can't keep up with your carroballista! I tend to believe that the importance of the carroballista is in rapid deployment to a fixed position, rather than to provide some kind of roving missile platform.

I can name that tune in one note...Agincourt :lol: Perhaps howitzer fire is a more accurate depiction. Used against a massed enemy rather than individuals, you're bound to hit someone no matter what the wind does. We have our friend Nerva to thank for his images of Dura bolts buried to the flights in terra firma that demonstrate the long range effects.
What you really need is a line of infantry to keep the enemy at bay inside the range of your ballista but beyond the range of their weapons. (that longer range is one reason I believe, that this "field artillery" development had to wait until the advent of the more powerful inswingers to become practical). Even so, why would lightly equipped slingers have trouble keeping up with a mule cart? As far as I know, they were led not ridden. (the carts, not the slingers that is :lol: )

[Nerva]

By Jupiter!

Steady on lads, I've only just got back from the pub and I'm up to the gills with that filth some Celtic liquor called beer! I'll sober up and have another look again at this tomorrow, but my initial (though drunken) response is to agree with Duncan, else why such a sophisticated machine? (Ok Duncan, can I forget about that fiver I owe you ).

Burrrp, parrp, bloody French beer :lol:

[D B Campbell]

(Ok Duncan, can I forget about that fiver I owe you ).

In this current financial climate? You must be joking! ( :lol: ) Hope you're enjoying France -- work or pleasure?

[Nerva]

Hi Duncan

On business I'm afraid :oops: Not much happening in my line of work in Ireland anymore so it's France and Belgium for me for a while :?

[Robert Vermaat]

it's France and Belgium for me for a while :?

Any chance of being in Oudenburg on Saturday?

[gneuspartak]

My ballista tuning !
Last period before start!

[barcid]

now there is another nice toy .very nice my friend 8) more info please & you should have your own thread to post such a thing in

[gneuspartak]

Its Alan Wilkins cheiroballista tuning.
The first design by Ildar Kayumov.
My tuning from 'The inswinging theory" iriarte/Kayumov(With the permission of Ildar).
I have altered iron frame(Klimanion and kamarion).
We have pulled 18 double torsions coil.