Philip II Iron Cuirass

[Matt Lukes]

Does anyone happen to have the specific thickness of the iron plates of Philip II's iron linothorax? I've long found it quite a beatiful piece and over time I've been working up to making a reconstruction- I now have a complete poster board mock-up but my next big hurdle is what thickness of iron plate to forge. One good quality photograph I have sure seems to suggest it's relatively thick, judging by the edges- I know they're all folded over so what is visible is a double thickness, but it still seems substantial. One estimate I've made puts it at around 2mm, but that seems rather a lot. So I'm really hoping someone might know what it really is- even if it's just the current thickness of an edge, for example, I can account for the corrosion and folding to at least have something reasonable.

I'm also wondering about the 'invisible' hinges of the body plates- there's an old thread from '05 where there's some discussion, and I've seen a reconstruction that has one integral hinge at each plate's edge, and two on the shoulder 'flaps' (anyone know the proper term for these?), but I can only see the bronze ones at the back- none further along as some text suggests should be there. I loathe to guess, so if anyone has any help they can give there too, it'd be much appreciated. Everything else I have down- it's just the hinges and metal thickness I can't seem to really find...

Thanks (in Greek)

Matt

[hoplite14gr]

iron linothorax? No such thing.

The iron armor exibited nowin Thessaloniki museum is partly Mystery.
The published book of M. Andronikos here does not have details.
There has been a thread examining the issue.
Its difficult to get hols of the detailed rports of the excavation. (not known for sure if something is there)
Have you seen Manning Imperial reconstruction?
Kind regards

[barcid]

ssh ! dont tell anyone but im waiting on a quote for one with out all the fancy bits :twisted: no gilt & no decoration GI version

[Matt Lukes]

iron linothorax? No such thing.

The iron armor exibited nowin Thessaloniki museum is partly Mystery.
The published book of M. Andronikos here does not have details.
There has been a thread examining the issue.
Its difficult to get hols of the detailed rports of the excavation. (not known for sure if something is there)
Have you seen Manning Imperial reconstruction?
Kind regards

Right, okay, "Yolk and Tube" cuirass then (a really rather unwieldly title, isn't it?). Indeed I have seen Manning's reconstruction but that doesn't really help with the issue of plate thickness unfortunately- it doesn't match the photo at any rate. I only found a thread from 2005 but nothing there actually referenced anything other than with author last names and doesn't specifically say anything at all about the dimensions or lack thereof- although it was there I learned about the second set of hinges in the shoulders I can't find any photographic evidence of.

It never ceases to amaze me that such incredibe pieces are not well-documented- it's a crime that reports on it aren't readily available. I had thought to write to the museum, but their website doesn't even have contact information.

[PMBardunias]

"Yolk and Tube"

Sounds like breakfast! "Tube and Yoke" refers to the generally tube- or box-like body and the "yoke" like a horses harness that goes over the shoulders. I don't know who first coined the term, but its best because its lino-leather neutral. If you write T-Y everyone on here will know what you mean.

[Archelaos]

Unfortunately, iron plates are heavily rusted, and this makes assessment of original thickness very difficult, if not impossible. X-ray photos are often used to find out details of iron artefacts, but while this could reveal details of hinges, it most probably will not reveal original thickness.
I had seen this object in Vergina Museum and I can safely say that today it is much thicker than it was originally. Currently it is as much as 0,5-1cm. as far as I remember.

Full excavation report? I tried hard to get info which spearheads were found in which part of the tomb for my thesis but no, "publication is in preparation" and is due to appear each and every year.
In book Andronikos mentions spearhead and two swords in pyre connected with Tomb II but in museum case from this place you will find 2 large spearheads, small one and fragments of two other plus two swords :roll:

[Matt Lukes]

"Yolk and Tube"

Sounds like breakfast! "Tube and Yoke" refers to the generally tube- or box-like body and the "yoke" like a horses harness that goes over the shoulders. I don't know who first coined the term, but its best because its lino-leather neutral. If you write T-Y everyone on here will know what you mean.

LOL it does at that- and of course I understand the meaning, but it does strike as rather combersome even as an abbreviation- I wish Linothorax weren't so controvercial a name. Perhaps a new one is in order= one that doesn't speak to the material but is still 'Greek'...

Unfortunately, iron plates are heavily rusted, and this makes assessment of original thickness very difficult, if not impossible. X-ray photos are often used to find out details of iron artefacts, but while this could reveal details of hinges, it most probably will not reveal original thickness.
I had seen this object in Vergina Museum and I can safely say that today it is much thicker than it was originally. Currently it is as much as 0,5-1cm. as far as I remember.

Indeed it was clear that the corrosion had altered things, but even knowing what the size is now can be helpful; with a limited amount of material to begin with, only so much 'expansion' is possible before something is structurally comprimised- for example, it's unlikely iron 1mm thick could ever end up 5mm thick and still be solid enough to excavate intact let alone display supporting its own weight. Plus looking at the folded-over edges helps as well since they're more likely thinner due to the forging to make them fold- if they're still intact, they couldn't have been super thin or the corrosion isn't so significant as it might otherwise appear. And then there's weight- that would uggest an upper limit and one can account somewhat for the corrosion to get at least a reasonable starting mass, and thus thickness. This is all if any of these measurements were recorded.

If presently it appears to be as much as 0.5-1cm thick, that surely says it wasn't extremely thin to begin with. I do hate to have to guess at least in the absence of any direct numbers, however much 'adjustment' is necessary to use them- but I guess there's little choice if the publication has been claimed to be in the works for however many years now.

Is there any dimensional data at all- even just the height of the thing, the diameter of the cast lion heads or the width of a sholder flap? Almost anything would help me at least print out a life-sized version from which I can extrapolate some of the dimensions that are in question. At least it'll allow me to make the gold decorative pieces correctly and not larger or smaller due to sizing the basic cuirass to fit, which is what I have now.

[Mythos_Ruler]

"Yolk and Tube"

Sounds like breakfast! "Tube and Yoke" refers to the generally tube- or box-like body and the "yoke" like a horses harness that goes over the shoulders. I don't know who first coined the term, but its best because its lino-leather neutral. If you write T-Y everyone on here will know what you mean.

LOL it does at that- and of course I understand the meaning, but it does strike as rather combersome even as an abbreviation- I wish Linothorax weren't so controvercial a name. Perhaps a new one is in order= one that doesn't speak to the material but is still 'Greek'...

I suggest "thorax" could be a simple catch-all (linen, leather, whatever).

[Paullus Scipio]

...But in our literature,'thorakes' can be a generic word meaning 'body covering', and in an armour context, 'body armour' and is used not only to mean the classic Tube-and-Yoke, but also the bronze 'muscle cuirass', or other body armour. If we want to be specific about the wrap-around body with over the shoulder pieces, whether made of leather ( 'spolas'), linen - probably quilted - 'thorakes lineoi', or iron ( the 'Philip' cuirass) then 'Tube-and-Yoke', because it describes the style/appearance rather than the material of this distinctive style is probably best