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2009 - Dating of "Haltern-Horizon" at stakes ?
#16
Quote:As far as I can see the "Haltern Horizon" is archaeologically NOT dated absolutely.
That's perfectly true, Christian. But few sites can be archaeologically dated absolutely. Beginnings can often be dated quite accurately, but endings usually rely on the "beginning" date of the next phase -- at Haltern, there isn't a next phase. So all we can offer is a likely assumption, rather than a cast-iron fact: Haltern is likely to have been evacuated after the Varian disaster, and probably very soon after; the ceramic material is no help, until someone does a complete re-evaluation; there was no organic material recovered, as far as I know; so we are left with coin evidence, which is necessarily imprecise. However, if the site had been in continuous occupation through to AD 16, we would surely expect to see some coins from the period, ... which we don't.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#17
Quote:However, if the site had been in continuous occupation through to AD 16, we would surely expect to see some coins from the period, ... which we don't.
Yes, but IMO the construct leading to this hypothesis is again a bit too vague for my taste. If we assume that the Altar Series I was produced until 14, as suggested more often recently, then we WOULD see contemporary coins. IMPO there needs to be more information gathered, before such bold and far-reaching statements are made, is is currently often the case. I´m happy for the moment NOT knowing the actual t.a.q. :wink: Big Grin
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#18
Quote:I´m happy for the moment NOT knowing the actual t.a.q. :wink: Big Grin
Fair point. I still think that some of the massive Lugdunum II minting would have found its way to Haltern, if the site had still been occupied. Maybe that's too bold an assumption. Smile

(It would be nice for the entire assemblage to be re-studied. I've never even seen a definitive publication, but we don't always get the latest German research here in Glasgow.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#19
Oh, I like this map
[Image: aliso2.jpg]
Doesburg is Teutoburgum and modern Aalten is Aliso? Big Grin
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#20
Quote: Maybe that's too bold an assumption.
No, not necessarily. Another thought, though:

Would the person responsible for the money actually want loads of the precious metal in a place that is in danger of being under siege or overrun any time? I wouldn´t. I´d keep it somewhere safer. Might be an explanation for the countermarks. For all we know, there probably never was enough money around in the Roman world anyway.

See:
- K. Hopkins, Taxes and Trade in the Roman Empire (200 B.C.-A.D.400) JRS 70 (1980) 101-125.
- R. Wolters, Nummi Signati. Untersuchungen zur römischen Münzprägung und Geldwirtschaft, München 1999.

We know that Augustus could use the money stored / saved by the Roman soldiers which died in the Varus battle. Maybe there wasn´t much money around on the right side of the Rhine? It would certainly have been a great risk to loose all that metal, which then might have been a huge blow to the Roman economy.
Just an idea.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#21
Quote:Would the person responsible for the money actually want loads of the precious metal in a place that is in danger of being under siege or overrun any time? I wouldn´t. I´d keep it somewhere safer.
Again, an interesting perspective. But remember that Haltern was a permanent fortress for 5 or so years. It was Roman territory, and probably the commanders did not think it was "in danger of being overrun at any time". Our perception is coloured by the fact that we know a disaster is imminent in AD 9 -- the Romans didn't. Their main concern was keeping 10,000 legionaries happy!

It's difficult to find a parallel, because the Augustan empire is a very different place from, say, the Flavian empire. But the fortress of Inchtuthil in Scotland was stuck away out beyond the edge of civilisation, similar to Haltern's situation, and coinage was reaching that fortress right up to the time of its abandonment.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#22
Smile
Quote:But the fortress of Inchtuthil in Scotland was stuck away out beyond the edge of civilisation, similar to Haltern's situation, and coinage was reaching that fortress right up to the time of its abandonment.
Certainly, but I wonder how far the situations are compareable? I don´t know enough about Inchtuthil to be able to comment.

What I meant is that it may be unlikely that new coins arrived AFTER the clades variana for the reasons I stated. There was perhaps enough of the "old money" around, since many of its owners were lying dead in the forests. Smile )


Just to make it clear: I´m not taking any postion here other than that I think we don´t know enough about the sites yet to come up with clear definitions about their dating and names. My point is simply that many of the statements made about Kalkriese, Haltern etc. and their dating should be made with a little questionmark at the end, and maybe a bit less convinced. Smile
I know that there are good reasons for all kinds of interpretations. Smile
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#23
Quote:Certainly, but I wonder how far the situations are compareable?
That's why I added the caveat about Augustan times being quite different from Flavian times. But geographically, the two fortresses are remarkably similar: they are both huge advance posts in "enemy" territory.

I take the point that the pay chest from Haltern was presumably shipped back to the Rhine, where much of its contents could (theoretically, at least) have been redistributed.

(Incidentally, do we know what happened to a soldier's savings when he died in battle? Burial club deductions covered the funeral. What happened to the rest? I can't think of anything offhand.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#24
Quote:What happened to the rest? I can't think of anything offhand.
I don´t have the "Impact of the Roman Army" here right now, but IIRC there is sthg.(or was it in "A Companion to the Roman Army"?) in it about inheritance laws for soldiers. So I guess if the soldier couldn´t marry legally there were no legal heirs. Which then might one lead to guess that the money went back to where it came from?
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#25
Interesting thoughts about the money. As far as I know some findings with coins in forts left of the Rhine from the Germanicus period were made. It is difficult to explain why this new money was not also brought to a big castra right of the Rhine if it only existed at that date. We are told (by whom? I'm not sure and have no book near by) that L. Asprenas, the man who saved the remaining two of Varus five legions, came under suspicion to have embezzled or stolen values from the dead soldiers. So maybe prior to 9 AD some values were stored centrally. But at least after this I think many soldiers were very eager to have everything they could near them, especially their money.

The coin discussion for Kalkriese is a difficult one (and, ähem, a boring one :wink: ), without clear result imho. I think the people who argue for 9 AD as the last date have the better arguments. But this alone is no prove or even good indication for Kalkriese as the place of the Clades Variana. But together with other very convincing indications for it it is enough for me to be a supporter of the assumption. The indications against it are often rather stressed ones. A bit like the speculation about the dead Germanics in the Haltern oven. This could have been anything imo, some attackers or prisoners or unlucky visitors or even some uninformed auxilia soldiers killed for vengeance or fear after the information of the desaster arrived the castra. Or something totally different. No reason to change the "Haltern Horizont" so soon. :|
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#26
When the Kalkriese finds were first published, I urged caution, on the basis that the finds could equally be referred to the campaigns of Germanicus, but the "Varus Schlact" bandwagon was rolling, and one can readily see why. Now, one can say that the finds are more likely related to Varus than Germanicus, but caution is still required. As Christian says, certainty is not possible at present......( we are simply dealing, as so often in ancient history, with probabilities)

There is doubt ( admittedly not much) about the identity of the battlefield, and the identity of Haltern, despite the thorough archaeological diggings and the fact that generations of German archaeologists have been trained on the site. To my mind, the fact that the bodies have been identified as German, and from as far afield as Bohemia, increases the probability that these unfortunate victims are from that era, because it is consistent with our sources who tell us that Maroboduus did not join Arminius, but the Langobardi and Semnones ( Bohemian tribes) did.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#27
Duncan wrote:
Quote:Their main concern was keeping 10,000 legionaries happy!
....a minor point, which does not affect Duncan's theme, is that while Haltern began as a 'summer camp' for two legions 'sub papillo' ( under tents), by the time of the 'Clades Variana' it had been transformed into a permanent camp/fort for one Legion (therefore c. 5,000 rather than 10,000), and probably Legio XIX, judging by coin finds ( though the uncertainty of this is demonstrated by the fact that coins of legions totally unassociated with the site are also found - evidence of vexillations drafted in, even at this early date, to bring units up to strength?)....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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