Rome versus Pyrrhus

[antiochus]

D Campbell wrote:
Sounds like special pleading.

Communication via email has been recognised as being a major source for misunderstanding due to the lack of identifying emotions. Therefore, Mr Campbell, with all due respect, you are misguided in believing you are an authority on my emotions? I don’t need to plead, I am very confident of my work. This confidence has come about by being able to use most of the empirical data in the primary sources, plus textual. It has been scrutinised and no one has been able to remotely fault it (well not true….I got some commas and grammar wrong… and my Latin plurals and singulars, are sometimes crap).

D Campbell wrote:
I think you have another incorrect ref. In my copy, it's Isid., Etym. IX.3.47 (for the legion) and IX.3.52 (for the cohort).

There are differences to the references I give and those you have. Some of mine come from old editions; I have borrowed from the University library. Some come from academic papers as footnotes. I have noticed many changes in the reference numbers in new and old versions, plus some academic papers.

D Campbell wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong (... I'm sure you will), but isn't your entire thesis predicated on the fact that the size of a legion can be exactly predicted and stated?

Correct. And I have them listed for 700 years. It can be done (has been done). At present I have worked back from Caesar concerning the antesignani. I found the same mathematical ratio going back to the Servian army. Dionysius also mentions antesignani for the Servian period. Regardless, if this is anachronistic, the numbers are constant from 530 BC to 200 AD. The antesignani work with the cavalry and Caesar always has 300 troops always in light order to assist the cavalry. Isn’t it a coincidence the number of leves in a legion as given by Livy is 300 men. Livy claims special legionaries were trained to fight with the cavalry. Does the Roman cavalry number 300 men? Do the 1200 velites have among their number 300 antesignani?

D Campbell wrote:
Again, you seem to be arguing that there were set sizes that must be adhered to. But you yourself have just suggested that Caesar may not have had enough men to form what you would consider to be "the correct size" of legion, so he "settled for a legion of 5000 men". Is there some reason why Justin can't settle for his legion of 4,800 men?

Justin can have any legion size he wants, but if the size cannot be found in the primary sources, how does he know it to be correct? According to Holmes (page 560) Plutarch (Cicero 36) states Cicero had 12,000 infantry and 2600 cavalry when proconsul in Cilicia, however, Cicero claims he has the nominal command of two skeleton legions. This example on the surface appears to be very perplexing. However, the answer lies in understanding their methodology, not number crunching. This can be a problem when you take one source giving numbers and another source indicating the number of legions. Caesar claims Pompey took 5 legions to Greece, Appian gives 30,000 men. Appian doesn’t say five legions nor does Caesar say 30,000 men.

D Campbell wrote:
Prejudice is such a nasty word.

I define prejudice as a barrier to understanding. I would classify ignorant as a nasty word. The meaning is in the beholder, and not set in stone.

D Campbell wrote:
Not so. The entire poem is about 10s, ergo your theory must depend on 10s if it is to seek support from Ovid.

Oh dear, you disappoint me. Nevertheless, I should not be surprised; you approach the material in typical academic style. Let’s look at Vegetius II 8. Now before I even start I am sure of the type of response I will receive. Vegetius has 400 soldiers in the first line, 200 in the second, 150 on two occasions and 100 triarius prior. The Servian constitution has 40 centuries in the first class, 10 in the next three, 15 centuries in the last. Firstly, it’s important not to be word eccentric in this exercise and focus on numbers. 40 (centuries) by 400 men = 10. We have a 10 to 1 ratio. The 15 centuries by 150 men = 10. The 200 men (two classes each of 100) = 10 per class. The same for the triarius. Vegtius’ numbers aligns with the many changes made to the Servian constitution overtime, and so is the factor of ten.

D Campbell wrote:
That seems counter-intuitive.

This is what I mean by personal prejudice. If you believe it to be counter-intuitive, then that will be your personal barrier to understanding the Roman system. Without having all the information at our disposal, much would seem counter-intuitive.

D Campbell wrote:
So you propose a system where a "century" starts off as not being 100 men and gradually works its up, through the years, until by the time of Isidorus it actually has 100 men? I'd love to see the evidence for that.

Well, Caesar claims a century was 120 men and Hyginus it was 80 men (legionaries or auxiliaries?). Maybe the 120 men of Caesar’s time are then split into two divisions of 60 men and then increase overtime. Ovid states everything then starts afresh and he is not the only writer to express this.

“Vegetius (II 21) For soldiers are promoted as if in a circle through different cohorts and different administrative departments, so that a man promoted from the first cohort to any grade goes to the tenth cohort, and then comes back as his years of service increase with higher grades through the other cohorts to the first again.

Here Vegetius clearly describes the process of starting again, or the circle. There are many parallels and repeating patterns in the primary sources like Varro (VI 34), when describing the “measurements of land writes “There are many things which the ancients delimited with a multiple of twelve, like the actus of twelve ten-foot measures.”

Again, simultaneous combinations of the numbers 10 and 12, which is the old Roman calendar working with the new Roman calendar. However, I will point out, like Vegetius centurion example of promotion, the Romans used the cycle system on all mathematical levels, so 100 is a limit, as is 500, as is 1000. The cycle occurs on every level. The premise of my discussions Mr Campbell is to highlight without giving the game away, there are other methodologies that can be employed to gain a better understanding of the Roman legion.