cloak puzzle

[Orlirva]

http://www.gryph.com/byzantine/cloaks.htm
shows a trapeziod cloak - anyone have experience with this design?
I am having some trouble executing this. An obvious requirement is that it be
large enough at the shoulder/upper chest to entirely wrap around the body with a
few inches spare... lets say 58 inches to accomidate a 43 chest plus the arms.
with the trapazoid closing in at a uniform angle, that unfortunatly means that
at the neck I have perhaps 45 inches...so there is a huge excess of cloth around
the neck. The period pictures show a rather loose arangement with the fibula on
the right shoulder - seems to me I can achieve that loose look and still have
an extra 12 inches I don't know what to do with. I tried to fold it in and pin
it well inside, but this came out bulky and messy... the folded in parts would
unfold and flap out.

also, if I had a tablion (I don't, not yet anyway) I would not be folding back the edges of the cloak, or would I?

-Rick

[hoplite14gr]

Rick,
The closest modern thing to the garmnents of the time are long priestly robes of the clergy of the Orthodox and Armenian churches. Those that have rank like bishop, Metropolite or Patriarch have design on their robes like those you you are interested in.
I trust that the internet has photos and the answer you seek is on them.

Kind regards

[Peter Raftos]

Rick,
I don't have any experience in that pattern but the sort of cloak you select will depend on what impression you are aiming at. I know your interests are very broad. If you are after a late Roman early Byzantine look that cloak pattern will fit the bill. Search the RAT Forum for sagum, it and other forms I'm sure have been discussed a lot on different threads.

However, if you are after a middle Byzantine cloak then the semicircular is the shape you need. The coronation cloak of Roger II of Sicily (12th cent) is a great example of this style. See [url:2l930n09]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Weltliche_Schatzkammer_Wienc.jpg[/url] It has a dip at the neck so the material doesn't "ruch".

Early middle Byzantine examples like that found in the Leo bible (Circa 935) don't have this cut out and bunch behind the neck. See [url:2l930n09]http://campus.belmont.edu/honors/macedonian/c935LeoBibleLeoToTheotok.jpg[/url] and [url:2l930n09]http://campus.belmont.edu/honors/macedonian/10thBibleofLeoSNikolaosWithAbbots.jpg[/url].

By about 960 the Paris psalter has the chlamys look like this [url:2l930n09]http://campus.belmont.edu/honors/macedonian/10thParisPsaltDavidWisdomProphecy.jpg[/url] and the Vatican Psalter like this [url:2l930n09]http://campus.belmont.edu/honors/macedonian/10thVaticanPsalterDavidWisdomProph.jpg[/url].

The Basil Psalter (which is really a Menelogion) has the cape represented like this: [url:2l930n09]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Basilios_II.jpg[/url]

If you need I can e-mail you instructions for the semicircular cape and how to drape it.

[Peter Raftos]

oops forgot to say ..search the RAT Forum for Paenula, Sagum, Full circle Paenula , hospital blankets and Help needed with a roman cloak or "sagum"....

[Orlirva]

That Roger II sure knew how to bling. Yes, we are bouncing around in the 600-1100 period and that is a wee bit on the broad side, but some of us will be trying semicircular cloaks so any draping advice will be appreciated.
The trapazoid is highly efficient in terms of material, which made me think of it as a plausible soldier's cloak - recalling one of the manuscripts in the Dunbarton oaks' teeth of the dragon book, describing a very full black felt cloak for the common soldier (cut unknown).
I wonder, by the way, if there might not be a hidden button or tie somewhere that neatens things up. For example, the ottomans had these detachable sleeves and flaps, but you never see the small inside button in pictures and one might wonder how they stay put, ... but some surviving outfits still have the little hidden buttons.

Rick,
I don't have any experience in that pattern but the sort of cloak you select will depend on what impression you are aiming at. I know your interests are very broad. If you are after a late Roman early Byzantine look that cloak pattern will fit the bill.
However, if you are after a middle Byzantine cloak then the semicircular is the shape you need. The coronation cloak of Roger II of Sicily (12th cent) is a great example of this style. See [url]
...for the semicircular cape and how to drape it.

[Peter Raftos]

Tried e-mailing some stuff to you but it bounced from the rickatkismeta address. I'll put something togther for you and send it if you send me an address. Also look at the Sagum mania thread on RAT. The tapezoidal and other patterns are discussed.

[Peter Raftos]

Good 4th C stuff here: [url:3m8gb0fe]http://www.comitatus.net/[/url]
[url:3m8gb0fe]http://www.comitatus.net/research_files/beginnerguide.pdf[/url]
Putting cloaks to use for a 6th C tent [url:3m8gb0fe]http://www.comitatus.net/research_files/soldiershelter.htm[/url]

[Orlirva]

Yeah, had to kill that email address due to spam overload. Please use
orlirva at
yahoo dot com.
Thanks -Rick

Tried e-mailing some stuff to you but it bounced from the rickatkismeta address. IAlso look at the Sagum mania thread on RAT. The tapezoidal and other patterns are discussed.

[Orlirva]

All great stuff. The tent is now an action item.

Good 4th C stuff here: [url:3t12j9n3]http://www.comitatus.net/[/url]
[url:3t12j9n3]http://www.comitatus.net/research_files/beginnerguide.pdf[/url]
Putting cloaks to use for a 6th C tent [url:3t12j9n3]http://www.comitatus.net/research_files/soldiershelter.htm[/url]

[Orlirva]

thanks to peter and others, I see that the picture I was following is wrong.

The cloak is like a semi hexagon (instead of semi circle) so the front edge and tabalions are on the long side. I Tried it and its "right" - clearly.
Thanks to all.
-Rick