Loot from Waldgirmes found ??

[Simplex]

....a note on my favourite Blog Archeonews "put my nose" on that one here:
[url:v9e5rbbg]http://www.welt.de/die-welt/article3592939/Museen-Dresdner-Kunstsammlungen-finden-Raubkunst-Gemaelde-Archaeologie-Roemische-Bronze-in-Wetzlar.html[/url]
It says that archeologists from Jena (D) have found a bronze fragment during excavations in Wetzlar-Dalheim (Hessen, D). They say the 118g piece is about 2000 years old and likely to stem from a lifesize
gilded bronze momument that is supposed to have stood in the roman finding-place Lahnau-Waldgirmes
(not too far away from Wetzlar-Dalheim). Archeologist Andreas Schäfer claims it to be an archeological sensation proving the case for the existence of a regular roman city (Waldgirmes) east of the Rhine in the years before the "Clades Variani".
Waldgirmes:
[url:v9e5rbbg]http://www.dainst.org/spuren/index4_6722_de.html[/url] (3rd pic from top)
[url:v9e5rbbg]http://www.roemerforum-lahnau.de/forum.htm[/url]
Lowest pic!
They say they already found 3 fragments in Waldgirmes (1997,2000 and 2003 resp.).
Website home: [url:v9e5rbbg]http://www.roemerforum-lahnau.de/links.htm[/url] in German and Russian ! They seem to have reworked the website.

So far -- so good

Greez

Simplex

[D B Campbell]

This is a fascinating site, Siggi. Thank you for posting news.

I am curious to discover why the German archaeologists think it was a town, though. It is quite clearly a large fort/small fortress. The only peculiarities are the stone foundations of the principia (HQ), which the German authorities are keen to interpret as a "forum", and the fragments of gilded bronze equestrian statue.

But we all know that, in Roman military architecture, the choice of building material was entirely driven by convenience. The fortress at Hedemünden has turned up stone foundations, as well. And surely every self-respecting principia had its imperial equestrian statue.

Perhaps I've missed some crucial indicator of civic life at Waldgirmes?

[Simplex]

....Hi D.B. ....
There seems to have been more than one "phase" of buildings. Water supplies to match a civilian location. :?
(O.K. -- even some smaller military sites had some elaborate water supplies too, --on occasion.)
Yes, and there clearly seem(s) to have been one/more military phase(s) also.
(There are traces of another camp on this site, but AFAIK not clearly so datable as to distinguish a "construction" camp, a "forerunner" or a camp for the soldiers dismantling the site(?). All of this seems to be possible. The Waldgirmes folks seem to have "refurbished" their website so that I myself have to "relocate" there first a bit :roll: . )
But most of the foundations, especially that of the main building seem to "point" in a "civil" direction when compared to other buildings' foundations.(In Italy and France) They also seem to interpret some of the foundations as being for civilian purpose probably because their similarities to biuldings in "canabae" if I understood them correctly.
Talking of Waldgirmes as a "roman city" or "roman city in foundation" seems to be firmly accepted as leading opinion by now --- as far as I can judge this. (The plan of the excavations has lost a lot of its "blank spots" in the meantime: [url:25rqlgom]http://www.roemerforum-lahnau.de/grabung.htm[/url])
I have had no opportunity to read some "more specialised" publications on this site so far.
And: The site is still "under evaluation/excavation".
On top, I just can't remember whether the "old website" hat an English Language Version or not.
But they clearly should do one for the "new" site -- and fast , IMHO. :wink:

Greez & Goodnight

Simplex

[D B Campbell]

Thanks for your input, Siggi. They seem to have translated the web site into Russian but not English!

Waldgirmes is certainly a complex site, but I am wary of jumping to radical conclusions too soon. I guess the archaeologists are suspicious at the absence of rows of barrack blocks. But if you excavated the wrong part of any other Augustan base, you'd miss the barracks as well.

The reconstructed plan of Haltern probably looms large in everyone's mind. But, in reality, much of the site is a confusion of phased building and rebuilding. I wonder if this is what they really have at Waldgirmes.

The so-called forum looks like a principia, and is roughly the size of the principia at Haltern and Marktbreit. Admittedly, it looks slightly odd with those three rooms tacked onto the back, instead of the usual rectangular row of rooms. And it has been laid out at a peculiar angle to the supposed road layout. (I wonder if they've really found the via principalis, or if they've just linked up the gates -- at Oberaden, the via principalis did not run straight from gate to gate, but kinked twice.) It surely takes a leap of faith to start calling it a forum ... doesn't it?

In my opinion, we really need someone with an open mind (someone without a vested interest in finding a Roman town in Germany!) to pick the excavation report apart. I'm afraid my German is not proficient enough for this task.

[Simplex]

....don't worry D.B. , it seems that they have excavated merely about 60% of the site's core.
Plenty of barracks still to be found. But like I said: beware, "multiperiod" traces!
BTW: They got to make spectacular statements, cause money is scarce these days, especially in archeology, so sponsoring seems to be needed most of the tome now.
(Get yourself a share of the "fame" while payin your share of the costs ?! ;-) ) !)
So "drumming up money" is part of the game. ....and who are we to blame them for it ?? :roll:
Waldgirmes can be a cornerstone og Germany's roman provincial archeology -- or may be not.
Kalkriese seems to be the "role-model" here in a way -- to the good and to the bad of it.

Greez

Simplex

BTW: I wrote to the webmaster of the waldgirmes site I'd really appreciate an english version there.
More "feedback" (eMails to the website's contact/Kontakt , that is) , on that subject would probably support me and speed things up. I'd really welcome some of my fellow "forum-mates" here to help me there. (Thanks, folks !)