Talas-Tal bronze figurine

[etruschi]

Has somebody got a picture of the Talas-Tal bronze figurine or the golden bracer (Siberian collection Peter I) showing cataphract figures?
Thanks
Philip

[MeinPanzer]

Here's a line drawing of it:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... lastal.JPG

For the golden bracer, I don't have any scanned images of it, but you can find a couple of good photographs in Véronique Schiltz, Die Skythen und andere Steppenvölker : 8.Jahrhundert v. Chr. bis 1.Jahrundert n. Chr (Munich: C.H. Beck, 1994).

[etruschi]

Ruben,
Thanks for the info. I can't open the link for the Talas-Tal figure. Can you help with this please?
Greetings
Philip

Here's a line drawing of it:


http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... lastal.JPG

For the golden bracer, I don't have any scanned images of it, but you can find a couple of good photographs in Véronique Schiltz, Die Skythen und andere Steppenvölker : 8.Jahrhundert v. Chr. bis 1.Jahrundert n. Chr (Munich: C.H. Beck, 1994).

[etruschi]

Ruben,
I can open it now. Thanks.
How do you see the armour the figure is wearing? Is he a cavalry figure?
Greetings
Philip

Ruben,
Thanks for the info. I can't open the link for the Talas-Tal figure. Can you help with this please?
Greetings
Philip

Here's a line drawing of it:


http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... lastal.JPG

For the golden bracer, I don't have any scanned images of it, but you can find a couple of good photographs in Véronique Schiltz, Die Skythen und andere Steppenvölker : 8.Jahrhundert v. Chr. bis 1.Jahrundert n. Chr (Munich: C.H. Beck, 1994).

[etruschi]

http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss12 ... akaeu8.jpg

I think this might be a reconstruction of the Talas-Tal figure.
Philip

[MeinPanzer]

Ruben,
I can open it now. Thanks.
How do you see the armour the figure is wearing? Is he a cavalry figure?
Greetings
Philip

I have no doubt that this is a dismounted cavalryman, as we also see on one issue of Azes I. This was a figurine attached to a bronze cult altar, and so it perhaps represents a warrior god or a nobleman. The armour represented is quite clearly the same as we find on the Indo-Saka issues, Khumbuz-tepe fragment, Siberian bracer, etc. We see the same ridged helmet; high three-sided rectangular collar; and the skirt with rows of armoured plates. The only thing is that due to the crudity of the figure, the artisan did not depict the plates on the torso or the skirt; laminated armour was perhaps also intended to be shown on the arms and legs, but were not shown for the same reason.

http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss12 ... akaeu8.jpg

I think this might be a reconstruction of the Talas-Tal figure.

This definitely seems to be, but I disagree with a number of points in the reconstruction. Firstly, the helmet shown on the figurine has a continuous ridge running from the brow to the back edge of the helmet, not just a small "handle" as shown here. Secondly, the artist has interpreted the featureless torso and rows on the skirt as solid metal armour, which is clearly wrong: we find no such evidence for solid plate anywhere else among the Saka (the artist has also misinterpreted this on the skirt of the mounted figure). Finally, though he was shown on foot, this man was almost certainly a cavalryman.

[etruschi]

Ruben,
I agree.
The rows of the skirt are clearly intented as rows of armoured plates.
As for the chest armour. I also tend to go for armoured plates, but I saw a reconstruction (black/white) of Azes I on horse once in an old issue of 'Campaigns magazine'. The article was on Scythians. Here Azes I chest was depicted with a small upper front portion of solid armour. The rest, from about the middle of the chest to middle leg was depicted in armoured plates. The arms were protected with laminated (text says leather if I remember correct) bands. Also the horse's front part and head was protected with plain leather.
Could a small portion of solid chest armour be possible?
Later Sarmatians certainly used a combination of mail and solid plates.

I didn't buy the magazine then, but I like to have the article with the reconstruction. Maybe you or somebody else can help me with this. Don't remember the number of the mag. though.
Greetings
Philip

[MeinPanzer]

Ruben,
I agree.
The rows of the skirt are clearly intented as rows of armoured plates.
As for the chest armour. I also tend to go for armoured plates, but I saw a reconstruction (black/white) of Azes I on horse once in an old issue of 'Campaigns magazine'. The article was on Scythians. Here Azes I chest was depicted with a small upper front portion of solid armour. The rest, from about the middle of the chest to middle leg was depicted in armoured plates. The arms were protected with laminated (text says leather if I remember correct) bands. Also the horse's front part and head was protected with plain leather.
Could a small portion of solid chest armour be possible?
Later Sarmatians certainly used a combination of mail and solid plates.

I didn't buy the magazine then, but I like to have the article with the reconstruction. Maybe you or somebody else can help me with this. Don't remember the number of the mag. though.
Greetings
Philip

I don't think I'm familiar with this reconstruction, but it sounds fairly hypothetical. Saka heavy cavalrymen certainly could have used some plate armour, but we have absolutely no evidence for it. Every detailed piece of evidence we have points to large square or rectangular plates being used in this early period. Sarmatians certainly did employ plate armour toward the late Middle or early Late Sarmatian period, but the armour of western nomads at this time period was quite different from eastern nomads. The closest thing we find to portions of solid plate armour are a longer thin band of fragmentary armour from the Chirik Rabat panoply, which Gorelik takes to be a solid armoured belt separating the torso of the cuirass from the skirt, but even this is not all that large.

Also, while some forms of armour may have been made of leather, the few actual finds we have of eastern cataphract panoplies from the centuries BC (Chirik Rabat, Ai Khanoum, Old Nisa) show that laminated arm armour was probably normally made of metal.

[etruschi]

Also, while some forms of armour may have been made of leather, the few actual finds we have of eastern cataphract panoplies from the centuries BC (Chirik Rabat, Ai Khanoum, Old Nisa) show that laminated arm armour was probably normally made of metal.


Do you have pictures of these Ruben?
Thanks
Philip

[MeinPanzer]

Do you have pictures of these Ruben?
Thanks
Philip

The finds from Old Nisa I don't think I've ever found pictures of - I've only ever read descriptions of them. The Ai Khanoum finds can be seen in Nikonorov's Bactrian Armies book (Fig. 13). I can post an image of some of the Chirik Rabat armour, but I'll have to fish around to find it and post it later. It should be noted that while only information on portions of single panoplies from Ai Khanoum and Old Nisa have been published, both sites have apparently furnished at least two complete suits of armour, with the Ai Khanoum examples being fairly different from each other in form.

[etruschi]

Images of the Chirik Rabat armour would be great Ruben.
All images on cataphract armour is always welcome.
Thanks
Philip

[etruschi]

Do you have pictures of these Ruben?
Thanks
Philip

The finds from Old Nisa I don't think I've ever found pictures of - I've only ever read descriptions of them. The Ai Khanoum finds can be seen in Nikonorov's Bactrian Armies book (Fig. 13). I can post an image of some of the Chirik Rabat armour, but I'll have to fish around to find it and post it later. It should be noted that while only information on portions of single panoplies from Ai Khanoum and Old Nisa have been published, both sites have apparently furnished at least two complete suits of armour, with the Ai Khanoum examples being fairly different from each other in form.

Ruben,
Did a bit research on the Chirik Rabat armour, without any success.
As I'm curious to see the armour, I hope you will find the time to post an image of the armour.
Thanks
Philip

[MeinPanzer]

Ruben,
Did a bit research on the Chirik Rabat armour, without any success.
As I'm curious to see the armour, I hope you will find the time to post an image of the armour.
Thanks
Philip

Sorry, I forgot about this thread. Anyway, a quick Google search showed that there already are images online:

http://books.google.com/books?id=t-SSqt ... irik+rabat

Hope that helps.