Use of the standard to issue commands?

[Tony Riches]

Hi,

Probably a stupid question since I've never actually read of it being done, but I was just wondering if a century's standard was ever used for the issuing or reinforcement of commands, rather than simply as the unit's focal and rallying point?

Thanks for any erudite guidance that anyone can provide.

Tony.

[Caballo]

Well, its a LOT later, but it certainly happened at Manzikert when the Byzantines were beaten by the Turks in 1071.

"The final campaign against the Turks was launched in 1071, headed by the Emperor. The army’s size was regarded with awe by contemporary historians, up to the ridiculous figure of 1 million (17) according to Matthew of Edessa. In reality the army probably comprised 40,000 men , very sizable for a medieval army. Romanus followed the traditional Byzantine strategy of deception in proposing peace with the Seljuk leader Alp Arslan while marching east to retake the Armenian border fortresses which had fallen into Turkish hands. When Alp Arslan did realise the danger, he hastened to Armenia to confront Romanus. Half the Byzantine army under Joseph Tarchaniotes withdrew back to Constantinople without joining battle, leaving Romanus and the other half of the army to face the Turkish force which was reckoned at being roughly equal in size . In the battle itself the internecine weaknesses of the Byzantine state played themselves out. The mercenary Normans refused outright to fight at the moment of battle, while the mercenary Turkish Uz horsemen defected from the Byzantine army the night before the battle to join the Seljuks, thereby causing great unrest in Romanus’ army. At the critical moment of battle, when the Turks charged around to flank and surround Romanus, the Byzantine rearguard need only to have charged forward and crushed the Turks in a vice. But commanding the rearguard was Romanus’ bitter political rival, Andronicus Ducas. Almost definitely in order to help his family seize the Byzantine throne after a major defeat, Andronicus suddenly reversed the imperial standards on the battlefield to signal a retreat . The result was an utter rout of the Byzantine forces and the loss of the battle. Not through any poor performance of soldiers or commanders had Manzikert been lost, but through the hollow strength of Byzantium’s military and her politically suicidal feuding for control of the throne in Constantinople."

[M. Demetrius]

I have wondered that same thing. A cohort of men marching would not all be able to hear a voice command from either end of the column. I wondered if a certain set of motions from the standard bearer(s) would be a better way, but I don't know of any proof of that.

If a group wanted to adopt a set of signals for Advance, Stop, Column Right, etc., I suppose it would start the predictable arguments from the usual suspects, but it would work, providing all troops kept an eye on the standard.

Trumpets were evidently used, too, but we don't really know much about that, either. In at least one place in De Bello Gallico, Caesar mentions trumpet signals, with no detail as to how. But they wouldn't have gone to the trouble and expense of having a Cornicen march along with the soldiers if he didn't have some useful function, would they?

[Tony Riches]

Well, its a LOT later, but it certainly happened at Manzikert when the Byzantines were beaten by the Turks in 1071.

Thanks Paul. I'm guessing that standards were used to reinforce orders issued by trumpet call (and by a lot of shouting and screaming and vine stick waving too), but I'll wait to see if anyone can confirm or deny before actually allowing my bad tempered standard bearer to do so in the second volume of the Empire trilogy. And thanks for another reason too - your post has reminded me that I need to get on with ordering my auxiliary 'playsuit' (or at least that's what the wife's calling it) from Adrian. I'm really keen to find out just what it felt like to be lugging all that metal around on your back (not to mention having one armoured arm!).

Best regards,

Tony.

[Caballo]

Hi Tony,

I'm really keen to find out just what it felt like to be lugging all that metal around on your back (not to mention having one armoured arm!).

Well, the best way is to come along to an event! Next one is a training session at the Lunt , just south of Coventry. Why not get the kit and enlist?

http://www.romanarmy.net/events.htm

Cheers

Paul

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I have read of the standards being lowered to indicate the start of the advance to comabt, but I can't recall if this
was in a novel(most likely) or not.
Hmmm, this is looking like a reversal from when I first joined a few years back.
The auxiliaries will soon out number the legionairies!!

[Tony Riches]

Hi Tony,

I'm really keen to find out just what it felt like to be lugging all that metal around on your back (not to mention having one armoured arm!).

Well, the best way is to come along to an event! Next one is a training session at the Lunt , just south of Coventry. Why not get the kit and enlist?

http://www.romanarmy.net/events.htm

Cheers

Paul

Thanks for the invitation Paul, but there are a couple of things that are going to get in the way of a third career in 1 Batavorum - my other two careers! The day job takes me away from home a lot (at the moment it's Glasgow, Paris and Beijing for the most part), and the writing 'job' chews up what little time I have left. My lovely wife is very understanding, but I suspect that becoming a re-enactment widow would be the final straw, even for her. Add a demanding publisher to that mix and I really don't think I've got the time... It might be different if I ever manage to ditch job number one in favour of full time writing. I'll buy the kit from Adrian and parade around my study for the time being, although I will a) send Pete a membership cheque to say thanks for some help he's given me and b) wander along 'some time' for a look at what your lads get up to.

Byron, thanks for the tip, spookily enough that's exactly what my standard bearer just told the 1 Tungrorum's 8th century ('I dip the standard and we're off to a sword fight', I precis but you'll get the picture). As for the auxiliary thing, let's hope you get even more of it once the first book hits the shelves. The focus is almost exclusively auxiliary - well you couldn't expect a fugitive from justice to go and hide in a legion, could you?.

Best regards,

Tony.

[Caballo]

Hi Tony,

No worries- you're always welcome. Seriously, a day in the field would be time well spent. When my wife's researching her historical novels physically handling the weapons and talking to people who spend a lot of time doing it can give useful insights. For example, for the book set in post Roman Britain, http://www.nmbrowne.com/CamlannReviews.html , Dan Shadrake and Britannia were incredibly useful. For the 1st Century, the RMRS were great, and for the Saxon/ Viking book coming out next month (Warriors of Ethandun, since you ask- what a shameless plug :oops: .....), a visit to West Stow Saxon village with the Colchester Roman society.

She also takes along kit to readings, especially at schools. Nothing gets kids (especially the lads) more into into it than suddenly drawing a spatha during a reading. Or one very noisy lot, where she waited for them to settle down by slowly cleaning her nails with the point of a pugio. They went quiet....very quiet.....

In fact, getting the kit could even be justified as tax deductible research expenses? Thats what I'll tell Mrs Caballo when my next helmet arrives anyway.... :roll: