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Our new cheiroballista...
Yes Martin I am and we are supposed to recreate around 79 in the Flavian period. Yes we have 2 3 spanners in wood but we have no record of metal frames before Trajan's column. I have argued that there must have been a development period as the Cremona 3 spanners were 30 odd years old but the committee remain unconvinced and short of some more finds with coins on top we are in difficulty. As to the bend in the verticals if you have an outswinger that is where the bend needs to be . An inswinger would indeed have them the other way I would have thought. Certainly that is the way Dietwulf Baatz interpreted them.
Quod imperatum fuerit facimus et ad omnem tesseram parati erimus
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Quote:Blame me for the bolts not Bernard. We lose a lot of them so I knock up a replacement bolt and do not waste time making perfecto bolts.
I can see where we get the vertical butts from. I too used to hulk an LMG in my case the 303 Bren a wonderful weapon.
Anyway you will not see our manuballista outside the classroom anymore as I cannot convince our committee that the iron framed catapulta was state of the art in 79.
I shall take some pics and weigh it for the record.

Derek, I do hope you know I was kidding about the drunken bolts. I would like to see some photos the of the machine, if possible.

Dane
Dane Donato
Legio III Cyrenaica
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Quote:Blame me for the bolts not Bernard. We lose a lot of them so I knock up a replacement bolt and do not waste time making perfecto bolts.

Perhaps if you would quit getting them drunk and leading them astray....you wouldn't lose so many of them!
Show some restraint Derrick, for gods sake man!! Tongue
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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No, no, it's their constant intellectual conundrum: the battle of aerodynamics (which makes them orient themselves in the direction of travel) and their having read the phrase "...bolt upright..." and therefore trying to stand erect, perpendicular to their flight path. They really can't help themselves....

If you're struck by one of them, you want it to be when they're mostly on the upright posture.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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derek forrest\\n[quote]Yes we have 2 3 spanners in wood but we have no record of metal frames before Trajan's column. I have argued that there must have been a development period as the Cremona 3 spanners were 30 odd years old but the committee remain unconvinced and short of some more finds with coins on top we are in difficulty. [quote]

Derek,
I agree with you that iron-framers must certainly have pre-dated their appearance on Trajan's Column. There are two major factors which support this assumption. The first is plain old military logic. It would be folly for a Commander to take a new and untried weapons system on campaign without traditional sytems to fall back on. Unlike the rash Domitian, Trajan was described as militarily astute, so the absence of tried-and-true wood-framers suggests that ferroballistae were sufficiently assimilated and/or provided such superior performance that wood-framers were not needed. The second and more direct source is Cassius Dio. In his description of a battle near the end of Trajan's First Dacian campaign he writes..."Trajan seized some fortified mountains and on them found the arms and the captured engines, as well as the standard which had been taken in the time of Fuscus." Dio p377
Since the engines shown in posession of the Dacians on the column are iron-framers, that strongly supports the existence of ferroballistae in regular field use as far back as 87-88 AD. Let's see if we can come up with a scenario/timeline, supported by the evidence, that can explain the disappearance of the wooden dinosaurs.

@25 AD Vitruvius writes his difinitive text on catapults. The salient features this eras weapons are;
Circular ratchets and drum type winches which have replaced the earlier linear ratchets and turnstiles.
A progressive trend toward shorter side stanchions for a given washer diameter (ie.underspringing compared to his formulaic ideal) as evidenced by the Ampurias, and Caminreal frames.
A tripod-type base with a separate backstay that has a hinged prop and socket (chelonium) to keep the case at waist level while one is winding the winch.

@50 AD Xanten The frame of a small wooden engine is found. It is small enough that it was likely a hand-held scorpio minor. It's most interesting features are;
A narrow single-arched (not palladian-shaped like Caminreal and Cremona) aperture, and a frame that it appears taller/narrower (oversprung) compared to Vitruvius' ideal ratio. This implies shorted arms and a correspondingly shorter draw length which would be useful on a hand-held weapon. On a stand mounted weapon draw length is not as much of a factor.

60-70? AD Heron of Alexandria The real guy, Edison of his era, and most likely candidate to invent something this novel. Writes about a new way of building a hand-held ballista using metal "field frames" spaced widely apart so that the arms can now swing inwards past each other. He doesn't bother to include instructions for building a winch or stand because as a hand-held, manually-spanned weapon, it doesn't need them. It's a cool idea, but underpowered for military use and won't yet supplant traditional weapons like Xanten.

69 AD Cremona Washers and a battleplate for a weapon are found (or should I say lost). The aperture is palladian-shaped and using the battleplate as a guide it is even further undersprung than Ampurias or Caminreal. By Vitruvian standards such an engine would need even longer arms and a longer case to compensate. Curiously, the aperture is offset upwards in the frame. This implies that the case and canalis funduswere similarly offset causing the string to ride directly on the "slider" above the plane of the arms. This is not really a problem since it is similar to the earlier gastraphetes and later crossbows. Moving the frame down (let's call it underslung to stick with the theme) makes it easier to aim over the hole carrier.(just for those "field of view" lovers out there :wink: ). The Cupid Gem is of indeterminate age, but I choose to place it here with Cremona or slightly before, but certainly sometime after Vitruvius. The initial reason for that was that, like Alan Wilkikns, I saw its "Itallic A" shaped base as a close relative to the braced monopods on Trajan's Column. Upon conducting a wire-frame analysis of it's blown-up image I realized that what I was seeing was an underslung wood-framer with an exceedingly long case (just like Cremona) and a new winch mechanism with two ratcheted handles rather than Vitruvius' drums. It has longer handles gain better leverage and is winched with the case laid down on top of the fixed backstay. The backstay itself now connects closer to the top of the columna No hinged prop or chelonium is needed or evidenced.

@70-88 AD Roman engineers improving on Heron's idea upscale the in-swinger design to where it becomes practical. A stand-mounted version can use a winch and circular ratchet to harness the increased power. Because they are in-swingers, the new weapons have significantly less of their case length aft of the universal/swivel joint. Thus, the backstay can be shorter and steeper making the weapon easier to shoot at high angles for long range fire. The new design perfected enough to be taken on campaign against the Dacians, where a number are lost to the enemy.

@98 AD The Tomb of Vedinnius Moderatus features a relief of a wood-framer very similar to the Xanten find. It is oversprung, has a narrow single arched aperture, and no stand is included. What could be a transverse belly rest (crescent shaped fixture) similar to the gastraphetes and Heron's cheiroballista is seen behind the drawn arms and bowstring ends of the machine. It is the last evidence of a wooden-framed engine until the much different Hatra in-swinger some 200 years later. Two other significant finds around this date are the Bath washer and the Elginhaugh washers and ratchet. Since they are even smaller than Xanten they could be taken as evidence that Heron's cheiroballista had been "up-gunned" just enough to begin replacing the venerable scorpio minors in the hand-held role as well. Some have suggested that these smaller washers were from training or demonstration models of the larger engines. If all small washer machines (say under 45 mm) of the Roman era were "training" machines, their survival rate compared to actual full-scale combat weapons appears vastly out of proportion.

101 AD Trajan's Forces attack the Dacians and recapture the weapons lost over a decade before, using ferroballistae mounted on a modified version of the Cupid Gem base. (the lower portion of the monopod has been eliminated so that the weapon can be used directly from a standard mule cart making it a carroballista). The versatile new design is also capable of being fired from parapets and emplaced on log cribbing in hasty defensive works.

197 AD The Column of Marcus Aurelius features what appears to be the "lazy Rho" shaped base of a carroballista in transport like the one in Scene LXVI of Trajan's Column. The one noticeable difference is that the rear corner of the cart appears to be cut off at an angle possibly to allow for greater arc of fire when the weapon is lowered in to the bed of the cart for firing.

Well, there's my current version of things, laid bare for the vultures to pick apart. It is merely my opinion and I invite others to tie the artifacts, texts, and iconography together as they wish using only logic, reason, and as few thready assumptions as needed. Duct tape and large hunks of metal that haven't been dug up in either text or earth are out of bounds. They will be taken away and you won't get them back until the bell rings :lol:
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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Quote:Well, there's my current version of things, laid bare for the vultures to pick apart. It is merely my opinion and I invite others to tie the artifacts, texts, and iconography together as they wish using only logic, reason, and as few thready assumptions as needed. Duct tape and large hunks of metal that haven't been dug up in either text or earth are out of bounds. They will be taken away and you won't get them back until the bell rings :lol:
Come on now Clodivs, we're all friends again now :wink:

Quote:I agree with you that iron-framers must certainly have pre-dated their appearance on Trajan's Column.

I fully agree, but unfortunately we have no idea of when these machines were first introduced.

Quote:so the absence of tried-and-true wood-framers suggests that ferroballistae were sufficiently assimilated and/or provided such superior performance that wood-framers were not needed.

We cannot say this with any degree of certainty. The absence of a reference does not mean they did not exist or were not used.

Quote:The second and more direct source is Cassius Dio. In his description of a battle near the end of Trajan's First Dacian campaign he writes..."Trajan seized some fortified mountains and on them found the arms and the captured engines, as well as the standard which had been taken in the time of Fuscus." Dio p377
I have two problems with this. Firstly Dio is writing long after the events took place, 170 AD +, and I have to seriously question his specific accuracy. Secondly, Dio's use of the word 'engine' is inconsistent in a number of instances - I mean this in relation to the original Greek text.

Quote:Since the engines shown in posession of the Dacians on the column are iron-framers, that strongly supports the existence of ferroballistae in regular field use as far back as 87-88 AD.
I would take such illustrations with a pinch of salt. I think there is a lot of artistic license displayed on the column. Even if we accept the Dacians were in possession of Cheiro/Carroballista how do you come up with 87-88 AD?

Vale

Nerva
MARCVS VLPIVS NERVA (aka Martin McAree)

www.romanarmy.ie

Legion Ireland - Roman Military Society of Ireland
Legionis XX Valeria Victrix Cohors VIII

[email protected]

[email protected]
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Nerva,

Of course we’re all friends. Who else cares about this stuff besides fellow artillery geeks. Like Jesse James says “Do you know what I’d say to you if I didn’t like ya???......nuthin’!”

As far as determining when weapons were introduced and exactly how they functioned we’ll just have to settle for a circumstantial case at best. I fear that even if we found a complete engine along with a copy of the operator’s manual signed and dated by the reigning emperor there would still be controversy. It may be naïve, but the way I approach the subject is to start with the basic assumption that period authors and historians knew what they were writing about, sculptors tried to faithfully represent their subject matter, and artifacts are trumps. If two written sources appear to conflict the one more likely to have first-hand knowledge is favored. Better yet, look for a way that both can be right. If two answers can be imagined for a question of engineering, the simpler one is better. If your theory requires you to question the veracity of your only source or add “missing” parts, perhaps you should take a step back and look for alternative explanations. After all, “it is a poor workman who blames his tools”.



There are three reasons I push the introduction of the iron-framers back to 87-88.

First and foremost, Dio says so. You can quibble over matters of translation and phrasing all day, but the evidence points to weapons being captured then, and technology transfer as part of the peace treaty. Writing seventy years after the event isn't so far removed. I wasn't at D-Day or the Bulge, but I can tell you stories from men who did. He deserves the benefit of the doubt unless there is more direct evidence.

Second, Cremona is the last uncontested evidence of a large wooden outswinger. Trajan’s is the first solid evidence of an iron-framer. Split the difference between 69 AD and 101 AD and you get 85 AD. Basic evolutionary theory says that two competing species will usually exist side by side for some time before one wins out (Homosapiens & Neanderthal) and that related species occupying a different niche will usually coexist with their evolution decoupled ( man & other primates/large iron-framers & small wooden manuballistae like Vedinnius ). If the major reason for moving the springs apart was something as esoteric as field-of-view and not a dramatic increase in power, then one would expect them to have existed side by side even longer.

Third, delaying the iron-framer concept until the end of the century forces one dismiss Heron as its most likely author and to then conjure up a “Pseudo Heron” to take his place. Down south they call that “climbing a tree to tell a tale, when you could tell the truth standing on the ground.”

At the end of the day the best standard we can achieve is by a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt as in a criminal case. A new find (like Hatra) can always come along to overturn our decision, but that doesn’t excuse us from making our best effort based on the evidence at hand.
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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Quote:Who else cares about this stuff besides fellow artillery geeks.

Scary stuff Confusedhock: That's like a comment one of our lads made about another re-enactor in the group "He's ok but he's a bit strange", I quickly replied, for gods sake man, anybody who does this has to be a bit strange in the first place Big Grin

Quote:I fear that even if we found a complete engine along with a copy of the operator’s manual signed and dated by the reigning emperor there would still be controversy.

Of that I am sure Smile

Quote:First and foremost, Dio says so.
Dio was not a military man, and he makes no reference at all to thier construction, metal or wood. Dont forget, Dio also calls carts machines in places.

Quote:Second, Cremona is the last uncontested evidence of a large wooden outswinger. Trajan’s is the first solid evidence of an iron-framer. Split the difference between 69 AD and 101 AD and you get 85 AD.

Well, I suppose that's about as as good as any estimate :wink:

Quote:Third, delaying the iron-framer concept until the end of the century forces one dismiss Heron as its most likely author and to then conjure up a “Pseudo Heron” to take his place. Down south they call that “climbing a tree to tell a tale, when you could tell the truth standing on the ground.”
Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head there :wink:

Vale

Nerva
MARCVS VLPIVS NERVA (aka Martin McAree)

www.romanarmy.ie

Legion Ireland - Roman Military Society of Ireland
Legionis XX Valeria Victrix Cohors VIII

[email protected]

[email protected]
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Somehow I am fond of the guy, although he is a thug: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... Pic_03.jpg It is from 1480 and still splendidly conserved.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Wow. Such heated arguments. here is a link to alternative torsion power that did not work out. You all might find it interesting I dont know.
This Len fellow does beautiful work, and if this Alan fellow is an outofthe box thinker - I applaud and support him. AuxArcher, I like your postings.

Heres the link:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/Catapults.htm


BTW - since the thread was about someones new ballista - Truly a work of beauty and function! I envy you.
Torsion rules! - Joel from Ham. Ont. Ca.
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One of my students would like to make a piece of artillery for my university project. Is there anyone here among the artillery-cracks who could give some info to my student about what he has to consider when building an arrow-shooter for the Augustan period? Would be appreciated a lot Smile
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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I need one of these. Is Len still receptive?
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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Quote:I need one of these. Is Len still receptive?

Good to see people who can prioritise their needs over their wants! :wink:

I too need one of these machines! :mrgreen:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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Quote:One of my students would like to make a piece of artillery for my university project. Is there anyone here among the artillery-cracks who could give some info to my student about what he has to consider when building an arrow-shooter for the Augustan period? Would be appreciated a lot Smile
Christian,
If they put wheels directly on the frame, deduct at least 10% right off the final grade :wink:
An Augustan era arrow-shooter is probably the best documented weapon since we have Vitruvius as a resource. If your student is looking more at the latter part of his reign, there are a few deviatons/improvements one might want to include. I've made up a spreadsheet that can compute the "standard" (well, at least the most generally accepted) dimensions for any given washer diameter. If they'd like to contact me directly just send me a PM and I'll forward my contact info. Many of my own views are outside the mainstream, but I'll gladly help anyone who wants to study the subject.
Regards,
Randi/Clodius
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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Heya, Randi! Thank you very much! I´d especially would like to see a machine without a sledge. Wink
Thank you very much for your kind offer! Big Grin
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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