Fox Crested Hoplite and vase interpretation

[hispano]

Hello PMBardunias,

Thats what I meant saying it is riskful to recreate without phyisical rests, making it only from pictures or sculptures. I relly like the exquisite link, and I recognize that the painting shown by nikolaos looks more like a dog, but the second greek painting I show you still looks to me like another type of animal, maybe an agressive mongoose, which surely will ressemble nikolaos a fox, and you a dog. As for me, the three possibilities are valid, and there is no reason not to think the three of them were used.

[PMBardunias]

the second greek painting I show you still looks to me like another type of animal, maybe an agressive mongoose,

Ah, I see. I missed that second picture when I first looked. I agree that looks more like a fox or mongoose. You have probably seen the image below. Often it is called a cat fightinga dog, but it is more likely a ferret I think- just to add another vicious little animal to the list. Do you have a better image of the that second vase?

[Kineas]

Paul B,

In the case of the cutouts, I believe they are an artifact of the requirement to tension a leather shield. Given that leather stretches given how wet it is. A cutout in a frame that is under tension because it has been drawn to the leather will keep the leather taut as its moisture changes

So, imagine the Boiotian as two bows separated and stretching the leather taut. It doesn't seem unlikely to me, even the mostly round one...

Cole

I can't believe I'm coming so late to such a fascinating conversation!

back in the 80's, when I was building Scottish targes from bull's hide, I noted that a full hide has heavier and lighter areas--the area between the lehs (the belly) is often very stretchy and soft. I suspect that both the Dyplon and the Boeotian simply represent the removal of the least protective sections and then a gradual development from there.

Also, for those who haven't fought with a lozenge or oval shield--it's not the shield that does the work, it's the base of the rim--or so I interpret the porpax set-up. Paul, could you show us some of the conflicts? All the Boeotians I've seen have the same porpax set-up--the arm is parallel to the length of the shield. It's that way on the statue in the Walters, which is quite detailed.

My understanding is that we have four (4) complete or semi-complete Aspides, and somewhere around 50 pieces--all of which could be from Boeotians (yes, I'm being a git...) seriously, when all you have is a porpax fragment or a bit of rim or some such, there's no knowing what form the shield should take.

Paul, have you read Boardman's comments on the "mythic" nature of the Boeotian in EGVP? I take them as quite cogent. After all--he is the greatest authority on the vase art. He thinks Boeotians are real.

It is funny how different communities with similar interests have different beliefs. Over in the gaming world, where people also do real research and argue endlessly, they think that the Boeotian is built with a cut-out for the elbows, so a man can wear it on his back while riding in a chariot. Hey--everyone has a theory!

[nikolaos]

Paul,

Having just read my previous post, I'm surprised you made anything of it at all, its virtually incoherent!

And thats how I feel now, so I'll save responding until after a good night's sleep!

Have fun!
Cole

[PMBardunias]

back in the 80's, when I was building Scottish targes from bull's hide, I noted that a full hide has heavier and lighter areas--the area between the lehs (the belly) is often very stretchy and soft. I suspect that both the Dyplon and the Boeotian simply represent the removal of the least protective sections and then a gradual development from there.

Are there any analogies of this type of construction from other cultures?

Also, for those who haven't fought with a lozenge or oval shield--it's not the shield that does the work, it's the base of the rim--or so I interpret the porpax set-up.

Early Dipylon/Boiotian shields are single-central grip, so no porpax there.

Paul, could you show us some of the conflicts? All the Boeotians I've seen have the same porpax set-up--the arm is parallel to the length of the shield. It's that way on the statue in the Walters, which is quite detailed.

I'll have to hunt for them. By way of a quick cheat, you know that Connolly believes (believed?) that the boiotian was still used in classical thebes and the cut out was there so that the left hand could hold a purported sarissa-esque spear.

My understanding is that we have four (4) complete or semi-complete Aspides, and somewhere around 50 pieces--all of which could be from Boeotians (yes, I'm being a git...) seriously, when all you have is a porpax fragment or a bit of rim or some such, there's no knowing what form the shield should take.

That's puzzling since more than that can be seen in the excavation from Olympia. I wonder the state of their preservation.

Paul, have you read Boardman's comments on the "mythic" nature of the Boeotian in EGVP? I take them as quite cogent. After all--he is the greatest authority on the vase art. He thinks Boeotians are real.

I don't have it. I'd welcome a synopsis of his best arguements. Do you have Snodgrass? I have some other papers on the mythic nature of both Dipylon and Boiotian.

[PMBardunias]

Also, for those who haven't fought with a lozenge or oval shield--it's not the shield that does the work, it's the base of the rim--or so I interpret the porpax set-up. Paul, could you show us some of the conflicts?

The short answer is no. I lifted the idea from Hurwit's paper, but cannot access the images he references. I can send you his paper if you'd like. The other line of evidence that we came up with on another forum years back is that there was no consensus to the orientation of the shield in battle was that the blazons are not in a consistant direction- something I am unaware of in an aspis where the blazon seems to be oriented so that they are "facing" the enemy when the shield is held up and in front.

What do you mean by the base of the rim doing all the work? My biggest objection to the boeotian is that it is not an oval shield. I can see no advantage to having the two halves of the rim come within inches of eachother and not connecting. This would requite so much internal bracing to fulfill the function of a simple rim as to be unlikely to exist. If we forget the boeotian and look back at the dipylon. I believe the depiction on the proto-corinthian Lechaion arballos, essentially a body shield held with one hand-grip in the center, is a real shield from a time just before the rise of the aspis occurred.

[hispano]

Ah, I see. I missed that second picture when I first looked. I agree that looks more like a fox or mongoose. You have probably seen the image below. Often it is called a cat fightinga dog, but it is more likely a ferret I think- just to add another vicious little animal to the list. Do you have a better image of the that second vase?

Hello again,
Here is the image, altough not complete. Eduardo Guillén gave it to me, strategos from athenea promakhos and I have had to wait for him to come back from Rome, where he has been for a few days with the Legio VIIII. Now he is back he sends me the image taken from a 1978 publication


It is an athenian vase from the third quarter of th 6th century bd. and the original is in the british museum.

Eduardo has signed here in the RAT and he tells me he is preparing to write in this thread in a few days

[PMBardunias]

The fellow next to the hoplite is an Aethiopean, so maybe the animal is supposed to tie into that- an exotic mongoose or civit :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

In fact the inscription says "AMASIS". Was he an Aethiopian? Not an Egyptian? Still,it is identical to all depictions of dogs in greek vases...

[Gorgon]

In fact the inscription says "AMASIS". Was he an Aethiopian? Not an Egyptian? Still,it is identical to all depictions of dogs in greek vases...

I know nothing about Art History and Classical Greek styles, but that strikes unmistakenly as a stylised rendition of negroid facial and hair features. I don't see anything "egyptian" in it at all. Is there any attested evidence for, say, Nubians in the egyptian military in this period?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yet,who can say that Exsekias could say the difference between an Aethiopian and an Egyptian? And the inscription says "Amasis" who,if i'm not mistaken,was an Egyptian king. Herodotus mentions him. So the name must refer either to the hoplite or to the other man,and since it's rather unlikely that an Egyptian king would be represented as a hoplite,I find it more likely that the name refers to the foreigner.
I agree his characteristics are more suitable to a negro.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Is this from the "Amasis Painter", if so then it refers to niether man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amasis_Painter

Herodotus decribes aethiopians with clubs like that if I recall. Whether these were the african or indian "aethiopians" I don't recall. I think the animal is a fox by the way.

[Gorgon]

Yeah, that seems to be the name of the painter.

Giannis, the word "negro" in english has a racist connotation (I think). I believe that you, beying a non-native english speaker are not aware of it. I used "negroid" because its a comon anthropological term, like "caucasoid" (even though it's beying abandoned too for the same reasons). I thought you would be interested to know.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmmm an Ethiopian king… I’m wondering does his equipment resemble actual equipment from the region?? I’m guessing it’s artistic freedom but maybe I’m pleasantly surprised

[hispano]

The fellow next to the hoplite is an Aethiopean, so maybe the animal is supposed to tie into that- an exotic mongoose or civit :wink:

Yes D D wink: I understand