Persian archer equipment

[Dan D'Silva]

I've been trying to source the equipment for a Persian archer around 500 BCE. I'm considering one of these bows and I wondered if anyone had any thoughts or objections...

[urlmu2rcbs]http://www.sevenmeadowsarchery.com/merchant.ihtml?id=6&step=2[/url]

[urlmu2rcbs]http://kultofathena.com/product~item~FL05.htm[/url]

Also, not only am I having difficulty finding a gorytos short of getting one custom-made but the more I think about it, the less I like the physical setup it offers. The arrows seem to be carried diagonally, top pointing back, on the left hip, which would be opposite the right hand with which I draw the string, so getting each arrow out with the left hand already holding the bow seems like it would be awkward.

How do you do it? I imagine you could (with varying degrees of practicality) swing the bow up out of the way each time, take out a bunch of arrows at once, take the arrows out with the bow hand... or just hold the bow in the right hand. Or, is there any historical basis for having a separate quiver that's more accessible to the right hand? Sorry if this is a n00b question, but the information seems scarce, and I really want to know what I'm doing before buying anything.

[daryush]

Hi!

The Achaemenid Persians actually didn't use composite bows like those - apart from Scythian mercenaries. They used simple short bows, with small recurved siyahs. If you're looking for one, it might be easier to make it yourself of get one made, I can't find similar bows for sale anywhere. I'd also steer well clear of Kult of Athena - I've heard bad things about their weapons.

Try a Parthian design for the gorytos - like a modern hip quiver, but with a bow compartment as well. I've just ordered one from Jordan Harmond at http://www.tophandleather.netfirms.com/index.htm if you're interested. I'm not entirely sure how the backwards facing one worked either - but if you rotate it round your hip 180 degrees it faces the right way.

Hope this helps!

[Sean Manning]

I can only give academic advice, unfortunately. The way the arrows in a Scythian gorytos point backwards looks strange to me, but I'm no archer.

Hi!

The Achaemenid Persians actually didn't use composite bows like those - apart from Scythian mercenaries. They used simple short bows, with small recurved siyahs. If you're looking for one, it might be easier to make it yourself of get one made, I can't find similar bows for sale anywhere. I'd also steer well clear of Kult of Athena - I've heard bad things about their weapons.

Try a Parthian design for the gorytos - like a modern hip quiver, but with a bow compartment as well. I've just ordered one from Jordan Harmond at http://www.tophandleather.netfirms.com/index.htm if you're interested. I'm not entirely sure how the backwards facing one worked either - but if you rotate it round your hip 180 degrees it faces the right way.

Hope this helps!

There are a good number of pictures of Persian troops using the Scythian type of bow. For example, Darius III's charioteer on the Alexander Mosaic holds one. I think you're referring to the other style of Persian bow which is associated with “Persian dress” of robes and a cap (although some Persians in robes use Scythian bows). Darius I's bow-bearer holds one in the Behistun relief. Archers in robes (with either style of bow) normally wear shoulder quivers like the guards on the glazed brick reliefs from Susa.

[Dan D'Silva]

Daryush,

Thank you for your advice.

The Achaemenid Persians actually didn't use composite bows like those - apart from Scythian mercenaries.

Could you give a reference about this? I've seen the simple bow in period art, but most sources I've seen (admittedly lacking good scholarly books) say that the Persians also used bows described as composite, or similar to Skythian ones.

I don't know who manufactures the Kult of Athena ones. I don't think it's their own brand, just a guess though.

[daryush]

Hi

Yeah, I was referring to the Persians as shown at Persepolis / Susa etc, such as in the following picture



The guy on the right is Persian, the guy on the left is possibly Median - he seems to have a bow which looks more like the composite Scythians you see on Greek vases and the like. I'm afraid I can't source any books or anything - I've just based this opinion on paintings and the like, and a few web pages (which I can't find! sorry!) and a few ancient history specials on TV

If you're after the composite bow style, try a Grozer Old Scythian - looks pretty much exactly like the original (a LOT better than the KoA ones, probably a fair bit faster as well judging by the looks) and is lovely to shoot.

I've just had a play with my own quiver and arrows facing backwards on my left side - it's actually surprisingly quick. It takes a bit of getting used to but you can nock the arrow pretty much straight away. In pulling it out I also ended up twisting my body at the waist a little bit - useful for mounted archery shooting backwards quickly.

Hope this helps!

[MeinPanzer]

I've just had a play with my own quiver and arrows facing backwards on my left side - it's actually surprisingly quick. It takes a bit of getting used to but you can nock the arrow pretty much straight away. In pulling it out I also ended up twisting my body at the waist a little bit - useful for mounted archery shooting backwards quickly.

Hope this helps!

Looking at some depictions of Persian archers on Greek vase paintings (not a great source, but unfortunately we have few depictions of Persian archers in combat elsewhere), it appears that they did wear their gorytoi facing forwards in combat. If the Persians used the quiver hook to hang their gorytoi from their belts like all the contemporary nomadic peoples did, it wouldn't have been difficult to just lift the hook off the belt and flip the gorytus to face forward before entering combat. It was probably kept facing backwards because that was simply easier, and you didn't have the bow tip poking up right in front of you.

[Dan D'Silva]

I think I'd sooner go with a Skythian bow simply because I can't afford to have much custom stuff made... and in any case the costume is going to be "Median-style," since, per Herodotos, the Medes and Persians used similar arms and clothing, at least on campaign (unfortunately I know of no Persian battle art -- it mostly seems to be processions).

Daryush -- are you in the US? Do you know about any distributors for Grozer here?

Ruben -- I like the idea of turning the gorytos forward... What does a quiver hook look like? I always thought it was held on the belt by a pair of straps.

[daryush]

Atarn gives a description of a scythian gorytos - it's not hooked on but rather strapped onto the belt by slots in the side of the quiver.

Afraid I'm in the UK actually. You could try contacting Csaba Grozer himself, he makes them a lot cheaper than any of the distributors I looked at in the UK, including shipping.

[Sean Manning]

I've just had a play with my own quiver and arrows facing backwards on my left side - it's actually surprisingly quick. It takes a bit of getting used to but you can nock the arrow pretty much straight away. In pulling it out I also ended up twisting my body at the waist a little bit - useful for mounted archery shooting backwards quickly.

Hope this helps!

Looking at some depictions of Persian archers on Greek vase paintings (not a great source, but unfortunately we have few depictions of Persian archers in combat elsewhere), it appears that they did wear their gorytoi facing forwards in combat. If the Persians used the quiver hook to hang their gorytoi from their belts like all the contemporary nomadic peoples did, it wouldn't have been difficult to just lift the hook off the belt and flip the gorytus to face forward before entering combat. It was probably kept facing backwards because that was simply easier, and you didn't have the bow tip poking up right in front of you.

Interesting suggestion!

I do know of one image showing archers in combat with gorytoi pointing backwards. An Achaemenid-period cylinder seal depicts a battle between Persians and Saca in stylized fashion. (Two fighters are locked in combat in the center, while each is supported by an archer with drawn bow). The Saca grappling his Persian opponent, and the Saca archer preparing to shoot, both have gorytoi with the high end pointing behind them. The two Persians are in robes, so the archer has a shoulder quiver despite his Scythian bow. But Saca gorytoi are slightly different than Persian ones, judging by art, so it could be that Saca didn't reverse their quivers but Persians did.

[MeinPanzer]

Atarn gives a description of a scythian gorytos - it's not hooked on but rather strapped onto the belt by slots in the side of the quiver.

No, their description is a little confused. The strap with the quiver hook attached to it which hung from the belt was sewn onto that part of the gorytus (oftentimes onto its "spine," if it had one, of wood). You can see what I mean here. This is the quiver from the Urumchi museum referred to on that page, from Subeixi, 5th-3rd c. BC:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/quiver.jpg

You can see the hook, which is found among all peoples who regularly used the gorytus, at the end of the strap. Persian reliefs seem to show the same sort of setup, though obviously with a different length of strap and a different style of gorytus.

I do know of one image showing archers in combat with gorytoi pointing backwards. An Achaemenid-period cylinder seal depicts a battle between Persians and Saca in stylized fashion. (Two fighters are locked in combat in the center, while each is supported by an archer with drawn bow). The Saca grappling his Persian opponent, and the Saca archer preparing to shoot, both have gorytoi with the high end pointing behind them. The two Persians are in robes, so the archer has a shoulder quiver despite his Scythian bow. But Saca gorytoi are slightly different than Persian ones, judging by art, so it could be that Saca didn't reverse their quivers but Persians did.

That is the only Persian representation of the gorytus being worn in close combat by infantry that I could think of. The new painted battle scenes from that tomb found in Asia Minor show cavalrymen wearing gorytoi, but I would expect the situation with cavalrymen to be different.

[bachmat66]

Are you sure the hook was used by the Scythians and Persians/Medes on their goritoi
7-4c BC?

I have several publication on Scythians with Russian reconstructions and none of them are showing any hooks , but simply leather thongs, eg latest Pazyrk reconstructions, and goritoi, akinakes and belt constitute one unit.

here is Chernienko and his chapter on the goritoi, he shows no hook either

http://annals.xlegio.ru/skif/chernenk/bow3.htm

also,

[MeinPanzer]

Are you sure the hook was used by the Scythians and Persians/Medes on their goritoi
7-4c BC?

I have several publication on Scythians with Russian reconstructions and none of them are showing any hooks , but simply leather thongs, eg latest Pazyrk reconstructions, and goritoi, akinakes and belt constitute one unit.

here is Chernienko and his chapter on the goritoi, he shows no hook either

http://annals.xlegio.ru/skif/chernenk/bow3.htm

also,

Scythians, yes, but Persians, I'm not so sure. As far as Scythian stuff goes, though, they are among the commonest finds in warrior burials and dozens of finds from the Altai preserve them in various states still attached to straps.

[marvises]

wouldn't the Persian armor kind of be like egyptian in a way with scaled armor and helmets with the nose pieces

[Sean Manning]

wouldn't the Persian armor kind of be like egyptian in a way with scaled armor and helmets with the nose pieces

Yes, the Persians did use scale armour and Egyptian (quilted linen?) cuirasses. Their helmets were probably the conical Mesopotamian style: I think the Greeks were the only people using helmets with nose guards in that period.

[fwg]

I've been trying to source the equipment for a Persian archer around 500 BCE. I'm considering one of these bows and I wondered if anyone had any thoughts or objections...

[url:5hrwsqhz]http://www.sevenmeadowsarchery.com/merchant.ihtml?id=6&step=2[/url]

[url:5hrwsqhz]http://kultofathena.com/product~item~FL05.htm[/url]

Sorry, but I have strong objections. I´ve never sees these stitched leathers on persian bows. (The linked bows are called scythians - but are in no way similar to scytian finds anyway...)

I would suggest this address: [url:5hrwsqhz]http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_b.htm[/url]
For your impression, the IndoPersian bow might be a little bit too late - but a very nice bow! (I own one ;-) ) )