How stuppid would it be to want a iron Squamata???

[M. Demetrius]

An iron squamata could be made, but as folks earlier have said, it would be pretty hard to keep it rust free, especially on the backs of the scales. Tinning is one answer that would work, or waxing, perhaps, but it would be hard to repeat any of those things after the armor is assembled.

Some Pictish types used scale, but it was very different, and much larger, according to a book I read a few years ago.

[Sean Manning]

The Persians and various Central Asian peoples used un-tinned iron scale armour. Of course, mild steel rusts more quickly than wrought iron does. I'm not done my un-tinned iron scale armour, so I can't say how bad the rust problem is.

The price of armour in ancient societies is a very tricky question. There's evidence that the price of mail fell 4-8 times from AD 1100 to AD 1500, so clearly the price varied widely between preindustrial societies. It was cheaper in places which could support large numbers of specialized craftsmen to divide up the work (not just blacksmiths but wire-makers or ring-makers or master mail-makers). I suspect the same was true for scale and lamellar armour.

[M. Demetrius]

Sean, do you think that armor in general was more expensive than the average fellow could afford?

[Sean Manning]

My impression is that in most societies, you had to be well off (not rich, but maybe in the wealthiest quarter or so of the population) or a professional soldier to afford body armour. After all, Polybius does say that most Roman soldiers only had a helmet and a square of bronze over their hearts for protection, and mail seems to have been scarce in early medieval armies. So probably a member of the Gallic warrior class or a professional mercenary could afford mail, but not a farmer who might have to join an army once or twice in his life.

The 8th century Law of the Ripuarian Franks values a mail shirt at 12 solidi (little gold coins), a helmet at 6 solidi, a spear and shield at 2 solidi, and sound ox with horns at 2 solidi.

Around 1200 CE a hauberk (a knee length mail shirt with full sleeves) cost around 2 pounds in Europe, maybe a year's pay for a carpenter. Many peasants could probably get that much money together by borrowing and paying part of it in kind, but only for something important like getting married or buying freedom from serfdom.

In England around 1300, the average price of a hauberk and gambeson was 170d (about three months' pay for a carpenter), and an iron cap for 30d (about half a month's pay for that carpenter). This low price depended upon a big international arms trade (some towns had several hundred people producing armour or materials for armour).

If I had to guess, I'd say that the first two figures are something like what a Gaul or German would pay before the Romans came, and the cost in a rich urban society like the Roman empire would be more like the third figure. Most of these figures come from a PhD thesis by Matthew Storey.

[Doc]

From what I have gathered either from reading or speaking to others is that objects were not really tinned on their rear.

I know that objects only had their front surfaces tinned.

There are examples of plumata where the mail was of iron (Augsburg). The gauge of such mail was around .3-.5mm. This is quite thin material and yet they built an entire cuirass out of it and hung scales off of it. They were not bothered by the fact that such small links could rust and there is no evidence of tinning on the mail.

Even though I have to agree with Christian that many iron samples were probably tinned, I cannot exclude the real prospect that there were scales left in iron without tinning. So if you like it I'd say go for it.

There is the issue of rusting on the back of the scales. However, as I mentioned to my knowledge they did not tin the back of the scales. So if the Romans did not have an issue with it, then why should you.

This is my two cents

[jkaler48]

If you are making an exact copy of something for inside display in a museum or similiar indoor purpose rusting is not a big problem. But if you are wearing rust prone items under wet weather conditions I believe most reenactors would find it acceptable to have metal items protected with non original coatings in areas that are not normally visible. Although it would be more historically authentic to spend many hours dealing with rust problems most of us do have other commitments and priorities for our time.
Even employers of full time historical interpreters might want to limit rust removal time in favor of most interesting activities to the public. So if you have the devotion to rust go for it but if you carefully hide the tin plating or other coatings and spend the time in other activities go for that also!

[Doc]

Well said John. I agree.

There are clear materials that could go on the underside of the scales that could take care of this problem. As for the front, you can clear that away when rust forms.

As John also correctly stated if you keep your objects indoors then rust should not be a major issue. I have a helmet made of mild steel. It is going on its second year in my house. I had to clean and remove SMALL splotches of rust only three times. Then I put some oil and Voila'!

If you wear it outdoors it will not fall to pieces for a few hours or even days.

[M. Demetrius]

...and as already mentioned, iron and steel don't rust in the same way. Steel will rust, scale, and collapse pretty quickly, but evidently iron makes a surface oxidation, and doesn't go much further for a long time. Maybe an occasional dunk in an oil bath or a wax bucket would be enough to protect it. Don't have any for sure iron around here to check out the theory.

Be sure to tin BEFORE assembly, though, as it would be pretty hard afterwards to accomplish that task.

[Folkert van Wijk]

Weren't these statements made for people outside (direct) service for Rome?

I was just focussing on the statements in the quotes, really. The two cultures were very different, and the professional soldier was a Roman thing, while the "Celts" and other enemies for the most part were only soldiers when they needed to be. (Remember the scene in 300 in which Leonidas asks the accompanying Greeks what their professions were? It's that kind of a contrast, that's all.)

I don't think I agree on that,

I do belief every Celtic clan or kingdom was "ruled" by some upper-class consisting of the king (Brennus) or chieftain and a few other nobles that were related to this king or chieftain. These nobles did have weapons and especially the sword was highly valued. These sword are found in l large quantities at ritual deposit sites such as La Tene, Port or Gournay . Most of these swords came with iron decorated scabbards of a very fine workmanship. These swords are also in different shapes and sizes which clearly show their different uses and therefore also some way of specializing and maybe even different tasks or opponents on the battlefield . Along these swords are found shields with iron umbo’s and iron edging and many spears also in different shapes, also showing some sort of specializing.

Manny of these ritual deposited are used for century’s and are clearly about warfare, telling us there must have been small scale wars and battles between these clans and kingdoms. These deposits also tell us about a Warrior cultus. All this must have kept the Celtic warrior busy and cave him plenty of reason to wand some training, weapons , helmets and even body armor. After all the Celts appear to have invented the mail, we now call lorica hamata. Did they sell the copyrights of that to the Romans and stopped using and making them thereselfs? There were enough bigger settlements (Opida) that show some kind of industry, making it possible to produce weapons and armor on a bigger scale.

Then off course there is the famous sacking of Rome and Delphi could all this have been don only by a bunch of farmers without battle experience and without decent weapons?
Throughout the Celtic history BC there have always been clans or groups of Celts wandering around making treaties with, or harassing other tribes and clans, plundering villages and steeling cattle…
Together with the many hilltop forts, Opida, and other fortified shelters showing the famous Murus Gallicus. Many of these have been rebuild, extended or improved throughout the ages. Also showing the need for defense and more or less professional soldiers who know what they’re doing.

And finally why wanted the Romans so badly the Germans and Celt to make up their number of cavalry and other auxiliary? Not because they wanted a bunch of ill equipped and inexperienced farmers in their ranks…

[M. Demetrius]

I didn't say there was NO warrior class in Celtic society, Folkert. I just said that culture did not keep a standing army of professional soldiers. That's why I said "...for the most part." Nobody else did, either.

When Rome was sacked, the permanent professional soldier was not a Roman institution, either. That came later, after Gaius Marius' reforms of the military, to build an army from not only wealthy land owners but from any citizen, including farmers, etc.

There wasn't very much left of the Roman army in Rome at the sacking around 387BC, following the Battle of Allia. In those days, most of Roman society, like the majority of other cultures, had a militia they could call up when needed, but did not keep a large army of soldiers on the payroll at all times. I don't mean to make it sound like the Celts took untrained farmers' plows and handed them spears, and said, "Now go kill the enemy." It was not that simple. Some sources say that the chieftain had a store of weapons that he could issue out when needed, and probably some of the citizens had a spear of their own. Odds are, many had their own shields, too. Swords and armor were less common than spears, that's all.

But we're off your original topic. If you want to make scale from iron, I'd say just do it. If you don't want to tin it, that's fine, too, really, since tinning was more of a Roman thing anyway. I'm sure the Celts knew how to do it, but it wasn't really their style. I could be wrong there, but I don't remember too much Celtic iron that was tinned. I admit I have not made an intensive study of that, though. Scale or ring armor is very labor intensive. Helmets, swords, and armor were not as common as we reenactors want them to be.

Compared to the above-listed prices, a factory-produced helmet or sword only costs something like half a week's pay. A set of riveted/solid ring mail costs around a week's pay, scale a little less than two weeks' pay, based on an estimate of 500USD per week. That's dirt cheap compared to what a Celt, Greek or Roman would have had to pay for it, don't you agree?

[Folkert van Wijk]

Some sources say that the chieftain had a store of weapons that he could issue out when needed,

Hm that's interresting, I sould remember that one. 8)

Compared to the above-listed prices, a factory-produced helmet or sword only costs something like half a week's pay. A set of riveted/solid ring mail costs around a week's pay, scale a little less than two weeks' pay, based on an estimate of 500USD per week. That's dirt cheap compared to what a Celt, Greek or Roman would have had to pay for it, don't you agree?

Yeah that's cheap!

So if I have 2 weeks pay left somewhere :roll: , I might go for a iron squamata with the back of the plates treated someway...
I remember seing a helvetii auxilia with a squamata in the book "Warfare in the Classical World" I ques this drawing is inspired by a sculpture somewhere? Is this book still considered a god read (and look)?

Another question could be where did the idea of scale armour come from? It looks to me like something eastern, If I am right the ancient Greeks allready used it in their body armor, did they borrow the idea from the Persians?

[Doc]

It appears that the Greeks used scale as part of their linothorax cuirass.

[Folkert van Wijk]

It appears that the Greeks used scale as part of their linothorax cuirass.

Yes that's what I mend, I only coulnd find the word for it...
But from where did they get the idea?
And from whom got the Romans that idea, the Greeks?

[Doc]

You are correct that the scales appear to be of eastern origin. It is possible that the Romans got the idea in the way that you described it.

However, it is also possible that since the Romans were in the east themselves, they may have picked up the idea directly.

[Sean Manning]

It appears that the Greeks used scale as part of their linothorax cuirass.

Yes that's what I mend, I only coulnd find the word for it...
But from where did they get the idea?
And from whom got the Romans that idea, the Greeks?

Scale armour was invented in southwest Asia during the early 2nd milennium BCE. It spread with the technology of chariot warfare across a pretty wide area. There are one or two examples of Mycenaean armour scales but I don't know if it continued in use during the Dark Age. The Scythians, Assyrians, Persians, and so on used it fairly extensively in the early Iron Age and the Greeks probably borrowed it from them. I'm not sure where the Romans learned of it.