Working on an triumvirate impression

[Tarbicus]

2nd half 1st century BC belt plates, buckles, frogs?

As I wrote above, except for the buckles there seem to be none among the archaeological evidence.

What about the finds from the Crimea, dated between the 3rd and late 1st C BC? Discussion here:
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[caiusbeerquitius]

Nevertheless, the archaeologists suggested four main periods - late 2nd - early 1st c. BCE; second half, especially the later decades of the 1st c. BCE; the 40s of the 1st c. CE; late 1st-early 2nd c. CE.

I suggest that we put comparable finds into the according context, which would let the plates etc. be later.

[kevair464]

So I built my first belt ever from scratch, I will post pictures later, but will describe it here, let me know what you think.

Interpolation of what a very late republican, Caesarian, belt would have looked like:

Used veg leather treated with e.v. olive oil, gives it a lovely tanned color

Buckle is a very simple early augustan model by deepeeka

belt is relatively plain having 2 long narrow plates, and 2 small square plates

The long narrow plates are brass/bronze, punched in a diamond pattern, these hide the rivets for 2 ring pugio frogs

The 2 small square concentric circle patern plates are evenly disperesed along the wide end of the belt between which the gladius would be strapped with a cross pattern.

Since there is no evidance for plate types of this period, i used thin augustan models I had lying around from a deepeeka belt. In the future I will mod the plates to more accurate ones once more information comes out on this period.

Comments, constructive critisim are welcome and encouraged as this was my first attempt at a belt, i will take any comments into consideration for the future when I modify it.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hi!
None of the deepeeka belts is early Augustan. The pelta-shaped buckles have a terminus ante quem non through Dangstetten, so are not usable for the period you are interested in. Same for frogs in combination with plates. Look into the Dangstetten publications for Buckles and such. If you look at the centurion´s tombstone posted above: The belt looks like it is of layered construction, indicated by the thin lines on it. Look into Jurjen´s thread about double-layered belts. The tombstone will also help you with the frog-problem: If you use this way of suspension you´ll not need the frogs.
The earliest types of the concentric-ring-pattern plates are from Haltern, IIRC, so not usable for you as well. Again, I don´t think belts from this period had plates at all. There are none to be seen on the Domitius-ara or on the tombstone I talked about, or on any other of the earlyer depictions AFAIK.

[kevair464]

Lol, i'm almost afraid to post what it looks like now, but I will. Take it easy on me guys, this is my first time building a belt and I don't want to have to cry, lol. The deepeeka Maintz is more or less a space filler as I have custom work coming next week, as is the pugio which is going to be replaced by an earlier varient from SOTW.

Again be constructive in your critism. I used scrapped deepeeka plates from other belts I had since it was my first time and I didn't want to badly ruin more expensive custom made (though probibly more accurate) plates, which i still need to get.

That said, heres what it turned out to be. Circa 50-30 BC (civil war period)

[M. Demetrius]

I'm not a historian, or a belt expert, but the only thing I'd say is that the gladius should hang on the belt that the pugio does not. (Of course, if you only have ONE of the two belts, well....) As for looks, I think it looks very nice. If you add an "apron" someday, the consensus is that it should be on the pugio belt. Some will probably say that you could shorten the pugio hangars a bit, but overall, very good job, Kevin. Leastwise that's my opinion.

Since the laud button is gone, here's a + just the same.

I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of, not one bit. You can get a much more reddish color by simply hanging the belt out in the sun for an afternoon. Don't know why, but it seems to work in about two hours, around here anyway. Some say Olive oil rots leather, but I have a belt done that way I've had for 5 years, and it's still ok.

[kevair464]

Thanks Dave, I have a second belt for my later pricipate representation, but from what I've read on RAT the 2 belt system didn't come in until Augustus, and as I'm doing the period just before that, I was going to try out 1 apronless belt. I know that plates arn't accurate, but I wanted to expriement with something I had before ruining good custom plates. The single belt pattern i found in Osprey Roman Legionary 50BC-100AD (dates are a guess from my memory), on one of the plates of a legionary from Leg I Antiqua.

Once the friggin sun manages to come out again, its been like 3 days with no sun, i will try to sun tan the belt. I kinda like the olive oil, it makes the belt smell like a good salad.

[kevair464]

K, here is a paintbrush "doodle" of what i want to make next, a dark green with white tooling edging as contrast 2" wide belt, no plates, no frogs, but with a long strap through the buckle, will hold both pugio and gladius much like the commonly referred to statue. Comments, suggestions?

[kevair464]

forgot the picture

[M. Demetrius]

Does anybody have a report on whether the weight of a gladius will pull the belt out of shape at the points where the straps come across?

I'm supposing you're using two layers of leather, stitched together...if the leather begins to sag at that weight bearing point, it would probably be strengthened by putting a third piece in that area, maybe six or eight inches long, and stitch it down all at once. Just a thought. It might work fine without that. Or it might not bother you if the leather naturally sags at that place. It would probably bother me, I think.

[jvrjenivs]

That's why I think in most 2-belt systems you see the belts crossing each other. The weight of the gladius just pulls it that way. I had almost no problems with a 3mm belt. No results of my layered belt yet, but I'm curious if the leather around the pugio-frogs will stay nice.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I've worn my bouble layer belt with pugio, but only on one occassion, no issue so far!

[M. Demetrius]

I've worn a single belt with a gladius strapped directly to the belt, but the belt had plates. Naturally, the weight of the gladius didn't bend the plates. I've never worn a plateless belt, which prompted the question.

Just wondering and being a worry-wart.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Me too Dave. I did find the weight of the gladius drags the belt down though, same with the pugio. With the seg, I made little catchers to hang the belt on, but as can be seen in pictures of me in a hamata, just the weight of the pugio drags one side down.

Looks ok with the 2 belts.

[kevair464]

My assumption, and this is an assumption since I haven't even started the belt yet, would be that making the belt as tight as bearable would help some. I'm basing this belt off the late republican grave stele showing a legionary with 1 belt holding both pugio and gladius, I am even going to try and mount the pugio right in front like on the stele and see how feasable this would be.

Making the belt tight would help hold it up, and the belt will be 2" wide, so almost twice as wide as the typical augustan crossed belts which are dragged down by the weight of the gladius and pugio. Though even with this 2 belt system, when I really crank on the tightness of the belts they barely hang down on either side, and with the extra tightness it also helps take some of the hamata weight off the shoulders.

I may either do a double layer belt or just a heavier weight single layer for the belt, the white stiching lines are more to act as a contrasting border than anything else.

How well all this works, well we shall see, this is an experiment after all.