Working on an triumvirate impression

[kevair464]

Hey everyone, I wanted to work on an early Augustan / triumvirate impression. I will provide a list of equipment I have, please let me know what i would need to change or what works from what I have... Its an interesting period and very few people portrey it.

Helmet-Coolus E
Armor- DSC Hamata, may be getting a Kalkriese Segmentata as well
Belt- Dual belts, one with 4 strap apron
Sword- Maintz Glad.
Shield- Curved sided Augustan type
Puigio- have a smaller republican style on order with SOTW

Anyone who does augustan and can provide a picture it would help!

[Theodosius the Great]

Belt- Dual belts, one with 4 strap apron

The narrow belts, IIRC, usually had more than four straps. But straps are not mandatory.

It's refreshing to see new people interested in creating Late Republican impressions, btw.

Good luck.

~Theo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I'm still working on mine, but will give a list of the equipment I am using...or making /waiting to be made; -

1. - Gallic A/Montefortino
Kalkriese Seg/DSC Hamata
Kalkriese plain plated belt/twin belts
Mainz Gladius/Hispaniensis Gladius
Pugio.....
Augustan Scutum/Republican Scutum
Pointy chucking thing(almost forgot) :roll:

I hope to be able to do a Ceasarian era impression to an early principate impression
with these combos.

[kevair464]

Do you have a picture of the belts? Curious to see what a "repuiblican" belt looks like, everything you see is imperial

[jvrjenivs]

Do you have a picture of the belts? Curious to see what a "repuiblican" belt looks like, everything you see is imperial

[url:203vin37]http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13_34&products_id=66[/url]
[url:203vin37]http://www.replik-online.de/de/shop/sites/artikel_details.php?artikel=1210&id=162&optionen=N[/url]
[url:203vin37]http://www.replik-online.de/de/shop/sites/artikel_details.php?artikel=1175&id=162&optionen=N[/url]
[url:203vin37]http://www.replik-online.de/de/shop/sites/artikel_details.php?artikel=1212&id=162&optionen=N[/url]

[Theodosius the Great]

While there are examples of Republican belt plates from Spain around Numantia and Castellejo, such plates are scarce in the archaeological record and may therefore indicate that plates were not common, according to Bishop and Coulston. Belts could be quite austere as you can see from the tombstone of Centurion Minucius Lorarius here : [url:2i11p4wa]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,83/Itemid,94/[/url]

(You may click on the close-ups below the main photo)

A simple buckle would be enough for a Republican belt, IMO.

~Theo

[kevair464]

To be more specific, and to get some more advice, here is what I want to do. I want to take my group in a different direction and portrey Legio X Equestris (Caesers Mounted Tenth) at the end of Caesers conquest throught he time of the triumvirate when it becomes X Fretensis and X Gemina. The period of the Roman civil wars of the late 1st century BC was a major transition period in terms of weapons, arms, and armor. In this period would the 2nd-3rd century oval republican scutum still be the norm, or would it be being replaced by the "chopped" repubican shield or "augustan" that has the top and bottom cut off to be flat, yet still has roundish sides? I know this is a period that is not well documented in archiological finds, so is it possible to use some conjecture? Like what is the date the typical crossed belt with apron pattern appeared? When specifically did each model of coolus come to be in use? When the shields made the switch? With the constant warefare I can see alot of variety in this period of old rebublican scuta, augustan scuta, varied types of belt patterns, mixed use of helmet styles, and even a minority mix of older style Kalkreise Segementata.

I was suppriesed to see noone has chosen to represent the famous "Caeser's Tenth", as there are a lack of groups in the US that do anything but Mid-Late 1st century AD.

If i get interest, I would like to possibly get a break-off group from my normal group going to represent this historically rich period of history (my group will hate me since they mostly have 1st centyrty kit). Just a thought

[Theodosius the Great]

Kevin,

Your plans closely mirror my own. I'm gathering equipment that can be used for a Late Republican Legionary impression which can also serve for a Tiberian Auxiliary infantryman impression.

To answer some of your questions :

The Augustan Shield with curved sides appears by 10 BC. But it did not replace the old-style Republican shield since we see Praetorians still carrying them in the famous Louvre relief which dates to the time of Claudius, IIRC. And since you're portraying a legion raised during the Republic it would seem likely that they carried the more traditional scutum well into the early Principate, IMO.

Helmets : Montefortino models 'C' thru 'F' would be good from 1st century BC all the way through to Augustus. The Coolus 'C' model may be good for a Caesarian impression. It's virtually identical with model 'E' and therefore the two types are probably contemporary according to Matthw Amt's website. The dating is quite murky for these Coolus helmets. (I'm choosing to go with a Coolus 'C' myself)

BTW, a Mainz gladius is probably too late for a Caesarian impression. A gladius hispaniensis would be a better choice.

~Theo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Actually, there has been a proposal put forward on the forum to start a group portraying this very Legion on an international scale, which would allow people from all over the world to get together and portray this very popular legion, en mass!

It would be awesome, but I haven't heard much from Piere Paolo (Rusticus) since last year!

Anyone been in touch with him at all?

[caiusbeerquitius]

Like what is the date the typical crossed belt with apron pattern appeared?

Somewhere between Dangstetten and Kalkriese horizonts, I´d say.
In Dangstetten (ca. 9 BCE) belt plates are basically absent despite the large number of finds. In Kalkriese / Augsburg / Rheingönheim they are there in larger numbers. I very much doubt that before that time there actually existed belts that were completely covered with plates. The republican belts by Erik König I think are very improbable repros.

[kevair464]

Does anyone have any pictures of reproduction late republican belts that I can see? So i can get an idea of how they are made?

[kevair464]

Duh, I just got the above links to work, those replik belts are very nicely done, just way expensive. Now to find the parts to make one..

[Matthew Amt]

BTW, a Mainz gladius is probably too late for a Caesarian impression. A gladius hispaniensis would be a better choice.

Huh, do you think so? I thought I remembered Connolly showing one from Alesia. Could be wrong. There's precious little else to go on, of course...

There is a theory that the "cut-off" scutum (curved sides and straight ends) dates back to Marius, when troops had to carry more of their stuff for longer distances. No pictoral backing for that, though, as far as I know. It's true that the old oval keeps showing up pretty late, BUT generally on Praetorians--who MIGHT be clinging to archaic bits, or who MIGHT just not do as much marching! (One thing that bugs me about theories on Praetorian gear, is that if the Praetorian Guard was first formed by Augustus, why would they be using things that date to *before* his reign? Hmmm....)

Matthew

[kevair464]

Thanks guys, I'm trying to trade some of my extra imperial stuff for late repubilcan stuff, I posted a listing under marketplace if anyone has anything they want or would like to trade.

[Theodosius the Great]

BTW, a Mainz gladius is probably too late for a Caesarian impression. A gladius hispaniensis would be a better choice.

Huh, do you think so? I thought I remembered Connolly showing one from Alesia. Could be wrong. There's precious little else to go on, of course...

I just checked Connolly's "The Roman Army" and he does indeed seem to show a Mainz carried by a Caesarian Legionary. But on page 35 he says that the 1860 French excavations at Alesia turned up no Roman swords - only a dagger and several pilum heads. So, maybe he's speculating about the Mainz in his drawings. Bishop and Coulston make no mention of the Mainz during the Republic which was the basis for my hypothesis.

It's true that the old oval keeps showing up pretty late, BUT generally on Praetorians

Yes, there's much more evidence for Praetorians carrying them as seen on coinage dating to Caligula's reign and on numerous monuments. This isn't surprising given the Praetorians got more free publicity in the form of imperial monuments in the early Principate. Individual Legionaries would have a to pay out of their own pockets to leave a nice, fancy stele of their own.

I only know of two Legionary tombstones, from Bishop and Coulston, that show the old oval scuta still being used. First there's that of Quintus Petilius Secundus which can be seen here : [url:3rvxyk94]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,46/Itemid,94/[/url]

And that of Publius Flavoleius Cordus which can be found here : [url:3rvxyk94]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,7/Itemid,94/[/url]

Neither of these have been dated but both men are shown wearing the double-belt set which, to me, suggests an Augustan date at the very least.

(One thing that bugs me about theories on Praetorian gear, is that if the Praetorian Guard was first formed by Augustus, why would they be using things that date to *before* his reign? Hmmm....)

Praetorians have their origins in the Republic, IIRC. All late Republican generals had a Praetorian cohort to act as a personal bodyguard. Augustus simply appointed himself multiple cohorts and based them in certain cities. At least, that's my understanding.

~Theo