Mannheim jockey cap helmet

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Or possibly, someone could only affor a helmet without the extra cost of cheek pieces?

Helmet...........................................100 denari
Helmet with decoreation around rim.....150 D
Helmet with cheek pieces..................250 D
With decoration...............................350 D

Just a thought.

[Marcus Iulius Chattus]

Yeah, that´s possible.

[Patrick M]

For this helmtype and the findings over europe trie these two links:

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.p ... File/25/26


http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00 ... 5_439_.pdf

[A_Volpe]

Matt - In a similar vein in what you were talking about, I tend to think that like the belts and bits seen from the Late Republic and onwards, it's likely when soldiers/warriors had free time, they probably added decorations and pimped up their gear and bits and pieces. If these Mannheim type helmets did not have cheekpieces or were omitted, it could have been a way to be distinguished or different, maybe even to avoid being mistaken for a (Roman) - Or, they could have found the cheekpieces really annoying and just removed them. (maybe it's easier/faster to don the helmet with a chinstrap as opposed to cheekpieces....I notice it takes some time to tie up our Imperial helmets, trying to thread the string through the rings and all...) We'll probably never know...But, that's what I'm thinking.

Caesar:

Helmet with cheek pieces..................250 D
With decoration...............................350 D

To add onto that pricelist:

Hammer out the dents we put in there to make sure you don't stiff us or talk bad about us....500 D
extortion...it's such a harsh word

[Matthew Amt]

Matt - In a similar vein in what you were talking about, I tend to think that like the belts and bits seen from the Late Republic and onwards, it's likely when soldiers/warriors had free time, they probably added decorations and pimped up their gear and bits and pieces.

Pooooooossibly, but be careful: decorations *usually* fall into pretty tight categories. And there are plenty of undecorated helmets and belt plates, etc. So either decoration was done by fashion-conscious craftsmen (with troops free to upgrade simply by buying spiffier stuff), or we have to assume that ALL the troops were very fashion-conscious. I'm good either way! (Mind you, I don't know enough about the artifacts of non-Romans to make a similar claim there!) But we just don't find much in the way of really improvised decoration, nor too many items that are "pimped out" in very unusual ways.

If these Mannheim type helmets did not have cheekpieces or were omitted, it could have been a way to be distinguished or different, maybe even to avoid being mistaken for a (Roman) - Or, they could have found the cheekpieces really annoying and just removed them. (maybe it's easier/faster to don the helmet with a chinstrap as opposed to cheekpieces....I notice it takes some time to tie up our Imperial helmets, trying to thread the string through the rings and all...) We'll probably never know...But, that's what I'm thinking.

Eh, I'm thinking that some helmets were made with cheekpieces, and some weren't!

Caesar:

Or possibly, someone could only affor a helmet without the extra cost of cheek pieces?

Helmet...........................................100 denari
Helmet with decoreation around rim.....150 D
Helmet with cheek pieces..................250 D
With decoration...............................350 D

More like:

Plain helmet without cheekpieces, 100 denarii
Plain helmet WITH cheekpieces, 110 denarii
Helmet with cabled rim, 175 denarii

From what I've heard of the economics of the time, if you can't afford a decent helmet, you can't afford ANY helmet, more often than not. (Non-Roman tribal cultures, I mean!) To me, a lot of low-quality helmets is an indication of someone or some government buying a larger number of them to equip guys who couldn't afford them otherwise. Doesn't have to be the Roman Empire equipping 30,000 guys, it could just be a Gallic chieftain equipping a few hundred. But it could mean a growing trend of making more affordable helmets available in an attempt to "keep up with the Joneses", as if locals were noticing the larger percentage of armor in a Roman army and thinking they better try to compete. Don't know!

Valete,

Matthew

[griffin]

I agree with Matt.

If you can't afford a helmet you don't get one. I also want to add that the cost of labour is a modern concept. Rome and most other ancient cultures were filled with slaves and craftsmen who expected to get enough money to eat and that's about it.

I would bet that added decaoration would be a minor detail to most ancients. There is some crazy glasswork that would be a fortune if we had to include labour costs,and I wouldn't be surprised if the same can be said of metalwork.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Matt, I don't claim to be an expert on Roman or ancient civilisation economics. What I was saying is that there could possibly be a cost reason for these helmets, and as an illustration of this, I put figures to it.

I think that was sufficient to make the point, but thanks for the education in costs.
Where do you get the costs? I doubt all warriors were of equal wealth, so I can imagine there would be some with more expensive helmets than others.

[Theodosius the Great]

Yes. Here:
http://www.rudis-kuenstlerwerkstatt.de/ ... -helme.htm

Yes, that's the place to get one. I've been considering getting a helmet from them for a long time.

Yeap that's what I would say to..

They sell a "Hagenau type" below the Mannheim type here : http://www.rudis-kuenstlerwerkstatt.de/ ... -cengl.htm

Anyone know what the difference between the two is ? I wonder why it's so much cheaper :?

~Theo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Because you have to finish it yourself. Trim the excess plate away, I believe.

[kevair464]

Gaius Julius Caesar\\n[quote]Or possibly, someone could only affor a helmet without the extra cost of cheek pieces?

Helmet...........................................100 denari
Helmet with decoreation around rim.....150 D
Helmet with cheek pieces..................250 D
With decoration...............................350 D

Not having your head smashed in by a raging barbarian...........Priceless

sorry it was hard to resist the Mastercard Commercial referance here...

[Matthew Amt]

Matt, I don't claim to be an expert on Roman or ancient civilisation economics.

Oh, me neither!

What I was saying is that there could possibly be a cost reason for these helmets, and as an illustration of this, I put figures to it.

Understood. Cost is always an issue, but my point is that we need to be careful of comparing it to a modern economic system. The "wealth spread" in ancient times was vastly different from today.

Where do you get the costs?

From yours! Just for illustrative purposes, not meant to reflect real prices at all.

I doubt all warriors were of equal wealth, so I can imagine there would be some with more expensive helmets than others.

Yes, but again keep in mind that there was a small minority of really filthy rich aristocrats, a huge majority of dirt-poor farmers, and in between just a very few who might be considered "middle class". Those are really the only ones concerned about the cost of a helmet. The poor wouldn't be able to afford one at all, and the rich could afford solid gold if they wanted it. And as has been pointed out, we don't know enough about the costs in what was a cheap-labor society, so it just seems unlikely that a pair of cheekpieces would break the wallet of a "middle class" warrior. That's all I'm saying.

Valete,

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

Because you have to finish it yourself. Trim the excess plate away, I believe.

Well, y'know--if you have the ability to trim and file a little bit, you get some pretty substantial pieces of "bronze" if you trim it yourself. Looks like almost enough to make a set of cheek pieces, or a bunch of belt plates, or --

Tempting.