Segmentata shoulder assembly help

[FlexBravo]

In an earlier post I mentioned that I am making Lorica Segmentata shoulders out of leather for SCA sport armor.

I have made several cardboard mock ups but now I realize I may not have connected them together correctly, which will/ and has, thrown all my measurements off.
Can someone explain how the pieces fit together?

For example I realize, from working from the outside to inside, lesser shoulder guards 4 ,3 and 2 are connected to lesser shoulder guard 1 via leathers by under lapping. Here is where I get lost. How is the #1 Lesser Shoulder Guard connected to the Upper Shoulder Collar and how is all of that connected to the Upper Shoulder Guard?

[jvrjenivs]

Did you know of the lorica-segmentata books (by Bishop and Thomas). They are available online:

[url:20aedrfh]http://www.mcbishop.co.uk/armatura/vol1.htm[/url]
[url:20aedrfh]http://www.mcbishop.co.uk/armatura/vol2.htm[/url]

[FlexBravo]

Yes I have the books and am looking at both diagrams for the type A and B. I'm trying to make Type A. However from the sketches I cannot see clearly how that one section goes together.

Does the Lower Shoulder Guard #1 sit alongside (not above or below) the Upper Collar Plate of the Collar Assembly (perhaps a half inch apart) and connect via leathers underlapping, going to lesser guards 2, 3, and 4. And the upper shoulder guard attach to the same leathers "in between" Lesser shoulder guard #1 and the upper shoulder collar plate?

If this is so then it seems to me there is then a small gap in the armor below the Upper shoulder guard where it attaches to both the #1 lesser shoulder guard and the collar guard. In addition if that leather breaks you lose not only the upper guard but the whole shoulder assembly. Seems like that center leather would have a lot of stress on it.

I had initially thought that the #1 lesser shoulder guard sat either above or below the upper shoulder plate collar assembly then the Upper shoulder guard would sit on top of those two thereby creating an extra layer of protection by doubling up the armor in that one spot. Which seems logical, although I can't figure out how it could have been done. And is why I need help.

FB

[Magnus]

Here is a picture of the shoulder guard unit from the underside, courtesy of Matt Amt's Legio XX handbook:



As you can see, all of the shoulder guards overlap....starting with the hinged one, and working on down till the end. So basically the first "shoulder guard" plate sits slightly above the collar plate assembly, and overlaps it.

This picture specifically shows the overlap of the shoulder guard #1 on the collar plates:

Matt Amt's lorica segmentata page: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

[FlexBravo]

Hi,

That pic of the underside is perfect. Thanks a lot. I also reviewed Bishop's book and found on page 62 a similar photo.

It does have a gap between lesser shoulder #1 and the collar plate. The gap is covered by the Upper shoulder guard plate. Now I know...

This was throwing me off as it doesn't offer as much protection as say; Having #1 lesser shoulder guard cover the collar plate in the same manner as it covers lesser guards 2, 3, and 4, with a slight underlap/overlap. Then adding the Upper Shoulder guard on top would give the wearer 2 layers of metal (in addition to the underlap/overlap) over a spot that would be trouble for a down hit with a sword or an axe.

Thanks again.
I'm not sure if I'll do it the way it is done in the photo or if I'll try to modify it to cover that small gap. Since it is sport armor I'm making, I'll be getting hit there and don't want a broken collar bone.

Cheers FB

[FlexBravo]

One more Q.

As I have never worn Lorica Segmentata, I am wondering why the Upper Shoulder Guard is in 3 pieces instead of 1 long one. I understand that as it overlaps it doubles the metal in those areas, but does it also travel at all and allow for more movement? Seems like the hinges would prevent that.

[Hibernicus]

There is some flexibility with the hinges.. not much but some. We use steel sSegs in SCA fighting, Corb A and B.

The hinges also facilitate repairs to broken straps or rivets pulling through.

Why leather for SCA fighting? Leather is so much more expensive than steel!

[Matthew Amt]

Thanks, Magnus, you beat me to it! Here's the Legio XX Lorica page, just in case:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

Collar and shoulder plates were often thicker than the girdle plates or girth hoops around the body, so the shoulders were very well protected. The overlap of the plates meant there was 2 layers of metal in many areas anyway. Or even more, since the plates overlapped at their hinges, as well.

Asking Why the upper shoulder guard was pieced like that is perilous--we simply don't know. If you make it in one piece--or rivet the plates together when the hinges break--it seems to work just as well. The Romans really seemed to like hinges!

Vale,

Matthew

[FlexBravo]

Hi,

Why leather for SCA fighting? Leather is so much more expensive than steel!

It just sort of worked out that way. A guy I know had a bunch of leather lames/scales cut out that he gave me for free. I decided to take a leap and and using the Ademclisis Metope as a guide I am throwing the lorcia shoulders over a scale cuiras. Mostly because I wanted the protection of the lorica seg. shoulders. One can argue for and against authenticity of this armor; the image below as having seg. shoulder. He certainly has an his right arm fully covered. The hi-res image I have seems to me to look as if his left shoulder has the plates instead of scales. Also I thought the leather would be lighter and allow more movement, though I could be way wrong on this. The leather armor being around 15lbs. I've no idea what a steel Lorica Segmentata would weight. Besides it's always something I can make in the future. Has anyone tried titanium? My buddy is making scale armor out of that, might be nice to try a Lor. seg. kit.



Cheers FB

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!

That relief from Adamklissi most likely just shows a regular squamata with the well-known shoulder yoke/flaps. They might be organic rather than scales, or they could even be solid plate, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to suspect that it is segmented. It IS shown backwards, though, with the square cut-out bit at the bottom on the inside instead of the outside!

A steel segmentata also weighs about 15 pounds, and is a lot less bulky because the metal is so much thinner than your heavy leather. So it articulates better, etc.

I'm not about to tell you that you can't make whatever you like for SCA use, though! As long as you don't claim that it's historically accurate. Have fun!

Matthew

PS: Picture too huge! Makes it a pain to read the text, now, scrolling back and forth...

[Hibernicus]

Yup, 15 lbs.. give or take a few lbs depending upon the size.

Articulates far better than a leather version. Better protection too.

We use our steel reenactment segs in SCA combat. I HIGHLY recommend it!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The segs are good, but remember a good subarmalis is also half the battle,
as it cushions the blows that will transfer through the plates.

[Magnus]

Hey Flex, I re-sized your pic for ya. Also, don't forget to add your real name to your signature...forum rules and all that. 8)