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Origins of the \'Hollywood\' Roman salute?
#46
Moderate, hell. Kick this guy off entirely. He has no interest in the Roman Army, only in promoting his nutcase credo.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#47
OK, before we were so rudely interrupted...

We were having an interesting discussion about what, if anything, constitutes the official "Roman military salute."

The Trajan's Column relief, I believe, shows more of a stylized "hailing gesture" than a military salute, particularly since the emperor is being hailed by a crowd of citizens, not soldiers. Although they could be soldiers out of armor, I suppose. Are they wearing garlands on their heads? I can't seem to get the link to a close-up to work.

I'm doing some more research on this whole question of the military salute, and hope to post a link to my article shortly.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#48
On to a far more serious and controversial topic - Rex, what do you think of my lovely tunic colours directly to the left of this message?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#49
I think another piece of supporting evidence for the straight-arm salute is the Romans' use of a hand placed atop of their standards

[Image: trajan2.jpg]

What else could it mean ?
Jaime
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#50
Hi Theo,

IIRC, one theory says that the hand (MANVS) was the symbol for a maniple, what means a "handful" of soldiers". So this could be manipular standards.

Greets - Uwe
Greets - Uwe
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#51
Hi Uwe,

Sounds like a good theory except that this image is from Trajan's column :?

I find it hard to believe that it carried on 200 years after Marius' reforms Wink
Jaime
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#52
Quote:OK, before we were so rudely interrupted...

Are they wearing garlands on their heads? I can't seem to get the link to a close-up to work.

Hi Flavius,

Here's a close-up for you Smile

[Image: trajan4.jpg]
Jaime
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#53
On the close-up it seems that every soldier has a different hand-gesture. Maybe there wasn't anything like "The Official Roman Salute"? Maybe we are thinking too modern.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#54
Quote:Hi Uwe,

Sounds like a good theory except that this image is from Trajan's column :?

I find it hard to believe that it carried on 200 years after Marius' reforms Wink

The concept of 'maniple' remained in place in the imperial army AFAIK, just not as a tactical unit. Two centuries make a maniple, three maniples per cohort, and the continuing use of the centurions' titles (princeps, hastatus and pilus resp. prior and posterior) also hails back to the manipular formation. Not to mention the use of the word 'commanipularis' for 'commilito' - though it is not certain whether this is just a synonym or really refers to soldiers from the same maniple or century.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#55
Quote:I find it hard to believe that it carried on 200 years after Marius' reforms Wink

Why not? Symbols can last for a VERY long time- even after their original meaning has been lost. I see no reason that the manus atop a signum couldn't have been a throwback to the old maniple. A modern-day example of something analogous is the 'air cavalry'- no horses involved, and yet they still use the term. Symbols are even more timeless. Consider a five-pointed star- it's had a zillion different meanings over time...

As for the figures with their hands on the their helmets- maybe their helmets are just ichy? Big Grin

Seriously though, in the scenes from Traian's Column, I figure it's just as likely the soldiers are waving and cheering the Emperor as enacting a formal means of salute. Is anyone aware of a literary source that describes any kind of salute? Sculptural 'evidence' to me is a rather shaky thing given how much artistic licence there seems to be around, as well it is an interpretational thing- rather subjective I think.

Matt
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#56
Hi Matt,

Quote:Symbols can last for a VERY long time- even after their original meaning has been lost. I see no reason that the manus atop a signum couldn't have been a throwback to the old maniple.

True, the Romans tended to never completely phase out anything. But I thought I read that Marius introduced new standards such as the eagle standard. I'm not sure if he substituted these new standards in place of the old ones. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, it's still a theory that it originally represented maniples and survived into the principate in spite of this. It's plausible but there's no way of knowing for sure, is there :?: Smile

It could also be a symbol of salutation like I said
Jaime
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#57
We maybe confusing several kinds of salute here.
The first what could be called the "instinctive" salute and may probably date back from prehistoric times. It's still practiced today. You see a friend on the other side of the street and you go "Yoo hoo!" raise your hand and waive it.
The waiving of the hand cannot be reproduced in sculpture...
It may have been, in earlier times a sign of peaceful intent. The hand is shown empty of any weapon.
It could be the gesture Marcus Aurelius makes on his famous equestrian statue.
The second is the sacramentum. The oath taking. Several representations from republican times show that oath takers would stretch their arm forward, with the palm facing down. This could be the origin of the XIXth century "roman salute" much used by the french revolutionaries and by the nazis --unfortunately. It is still used in a less dramatic fashion by witnesses in courts of law ("Raise you right hand").. And by US presidents on their inauguration.
The third is what is shown on Trajan's Column fragment shown above. I think it goes with the caption: "Lo and behold the Emperor!". What the guy with the arm extended and the palm facing sideways does is just point at the Emperor. It's another way of pointing at people or things and it's a mediterranean trait. My corsican grandmother would point at things this way, with the whole hand and not only with the index finger. It adds importance to the thing or person you're pointing at.
The fourth one is the military salute and I am yet to see a conclusive proof there was one.. The byzantine casket could be one. Just could be..
Actually I tend to imagine a more "japanese" attitude between ranks. Standing at attention when receiving orders, and acknowledging the orders by a quick inclination of the torso, before running like hell to carry on said order.
Pascal Sabas
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#58
I notice all of the depictions of Romans saluting the "modern" way are Romans in more or less full uniform, or, as we use to say it, under arms.

The Trajan's column depiction shows men not under arms.

My way of interpreting this is that when under arms, the Roman soldier saluted in the "modern" way.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#59
It has been suggested in the past that perhaps it was customary for a lower rank to remove his helmet as a sign of respect (I think I may have said it, but can't find it right now). One result of this is that the higher rank would stay more protected. Perhaps under arms, particularly during battle or campaign where it could be impractical and even downright dangerous, this was replaced by a gesture signifying the removal of the helmet?

A more modern equivalent can be seen in the Naval services:
[url:1hn69fd0]http://www.readyayeready.com/tradition/customs-of-the-navy/5-salutes-and-ceremonial.htm[/url]
Quote:Until about 1800 the normal type of salute was the raising of the cap, originating with the removal of the steel helmet. Merely touching the cap became a recognized alternative. Admiralty regulations of 1882 defined the salute as removing the cap, or at least touching the brim between the index finger and thumb. This is a clear indication of the origin of the naval type of salute, though other more interesting reasons have been offered. One of these is that in the year 1890 Queen Victoria, renowned for her primness and femininity, while inspecting a body of her sailors turned out in their best uniforms, was horrified at the sight of their tar-stained hands, and ordered that in future the naval salute was to be with the offending palms turned down.

I know they are centuries apart, but if a reason for red being the colour 'under arms' as suggested by many was for practical reasons then the same could apply (possibly - I emphasise) to the salute. But the removal of the hat as a mark of respect is also a Christian tradition which is full of Roman influences.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#60
Hmmmm.

It looks like in the pictures Uwe and Theodosius provided from Trajan's column - To me it looks like the soldiers are extending hands out as if to recieve something handed to them.
In Theodosius' detail, look at the figure 2nd in from the Right side, who's head is inbetween 2 Signa, he's holding out his hand, with finger pointing. The one infront of him holding fingers up, as if just about to "push" at something. He also holds it lower. The figure infront of him (in the middle of the picture) holds hand out, with palm facing towards us.

With that in mind and thinking of the "Cavalry Salute" (straigh-armed salute) I'm starting to see this now as if the [cavalry officer] is holding his hand outwards and over the heads of his soldiers...Where as the soliders "meet" his hand by outstretching thiers.

Is it possible that this straight arm salute is both for cavalry/officers, (and since they are on horseback and therefore "above" lower ranking soldiers in terms both of rank and litteraly in seat?) as well as for the Adlocutio? (thinking that the officer/general/Emperor would be standing up on a stage or platform or even horse to address over the soldiers?)

What about the Auxiliaries in the background, holding onto the cows. Are they holding onto some sort of strap or bag over shoulder with thier bent arms? Or are they doing some sort of posture/salute themselves? However, It does look like the furthest one, all the way on the Left, is holding part of the cow's reigns in both hands, the middle figure's details have probably worn away.

The earlier picture of the Republican soldier who seems to be "tipping" his helmet, could this be an "older" form of salute, perhaps originally to be you would tip to, or even take off your helmet when saluting an officer?

The picture with Germanicus, with the woman's hand holding the back of his helmet; his hand looks like it's on top of his helmet, as if he'd just finished putting it back on his head, OR that he was gesturing to do so, symbolically?

I've always found it rather odd to have the "chest pump" and then straight arm salute. If you're a soldier in the field and you have a pilum in hand and your scutum in the other...Trying to do a chest pump with a pilum is not only going to look silly, but you'll clonk yourself in the head. Not fitting for a soldier!
So, I can see a straight-arm being used, essp. with a Pilum...But then, most of the sculptures do show soldiers without pila in hand....So perhaps that's not supportable?

I've been using the bent-arm-touch-brow salute (like the "fiddling with helmet" Republican guy), but I keep my elbow pointing forwards, rather than sideways, as is the modern (U.S.?) salute. I keep my fingers "loose" too. I have also tried "tipping" my helmet, and outside of looking as if I'm fiddling with my helmet, I guess that works too. But when you have the helmet tied on...It's kinda silly to be tipping your helmet like that, and to me, a complete waste of time to put down the shield, untie the helmet, take off/tip off the helmet, then clomping it back on your head and re-tying it.

just some thoughts.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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