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mcbishop · 01-02-2005, 03:07 PM

The Lafayette Escadrille's symbol was of the same motiff and had one as well. 
 
Being a good luck symbol, the swastika was very popular with early aviators and aviatrices. Werner VoÃƒÆ’Ã…Â¸ is one of the most obvious, having a laureate one on either side of the fuselage of his Albatros D.III, together with three red hearts (the combination of hearts and swastikas was popular on postcards of the Edwardian period, again because of the good luck connotations). It didn't always work, as Harriet Quimby (who wore a swastika charm) found - she was the first aviatrix to get her license in America... she was also the first woman pilot to fall out of her own aircraft over Boston harbour in 1912 and then have her aircraft go on to make a perfect landing. Oops. 
 
Mike Bishop

FlaviusCrispus · 01-02-2005, 06:39 PM

Avete, comilitones! 
I want to revisit the question of what, if anything, constitutes the "Roman salute." 
 
The earlier thread on this subject, linked by peglr003, is missing some critical image links (they have probably gone dormant or no longer exit), particularly of the Mikkalus relief. Any chance of getting these reposted? 
 
Here is a link to the pertinant portion of the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief. 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/altardetail2.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
In the earlier thread, a couple people claimed the soldier wasn't saluting, just tipping his helmet back, because because he has "no one to salute." As you can see from the detail I posted, there is, clearly, someone to salute-- the civilian, togate magistrate seated to his left and turning to the soldier with a raised hand, as if giving him some instruction. The contrast between the "saluting" soldier and the one immediately to his right, turned away, is instructive-- the other soldier is in a more relaxed pose, with his shield resting on the ground, while the "saluting" soldier is standing straight, with his shield held off the ground; his head is tipped downward only because he is looking at the seated magistrate. I think this is a salute, not just a "tipping of the helmet," "scratching of the head," or "whew!" gesture as suggested by some. 
 
Another possible scene with a salute is from the Gemma Tiberiana, a famous cameo showing a triumphant Germanicus greeting Tiberius: 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/gemma tiberiana.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
As you can see, Germanicus holds his arm in the same bent-arm fashion as the soldier in the Domitius relief, but in this case his hand seems to rest on top of, or behind his helmet. 
 
I'd like now to see the Mikkalus relief, if someone can post it. 
 
Comments, anyone? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/3/05 12:28 am

FlaviusCrispus · 01-02-2005, 11:25 PM

Just an added note... 
 
The illustration of the Gemma Tiberiana shown in the post above is, I believe, "flipped" from left to right vs. the actual cameo. Here, it appears as though Germanicus holds his shield on the right arm and "salutes" with his left-- I'm pretty sure it's the other way around on the actual gem. This is the only decent-sized illustration of the gem I could find on the web. Anyone know of an actual photo of it? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus

Theodosius the Great · 01-03-2005, 05:42 AM

[Edited : Link no longer exists]

[Image: salute.jpg]

[EDITED AGAIN : Updated broken link]

~Theo

FlaviusCrispus · 01-03-2005, 07:16 AM

Thanks, Theo! 
 
That's a much clearer image of the gem. Germanicus' fingers are clearly visible and clearly "bent," and they seem to be resting alongside his helmet. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI VPF 
California, USA

Uwe Bahr · 01-03-2005, 11:51 AM

Ave Flavius Crispus, 
 
You wrote 
 
Quote:<hr>The earlier thread on this subject, linked by pelgr003, is missing some critical image links (they have probably gone dormant or no longer exit), particularly of the Mikkalus relief. Any chance of getting these reposted?<hr> 
 
I think it were pictures in my comment You are referring to and so I reposted them in the earlier thread. For better comparison with the new pictures in this thread I posted them here too: 
 
<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/Armsalut.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Armenian infantry in Byzantine employ on an ivory casket from the 10th Century. 
 
<img src="http://people.freenet.de/u-bahr/legsalut.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Figurine from the museum in Strasbourg 
 
IMHO both pictures together with 
 
- the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief 
- the grave monument of T. Flavius Mikkalus 
- the 10th-century ivory casket with Byzantine infantry 
 
show lower ranks saluting to superior officers and I would even go so far to assume that this kind of Roman salute is the predecessor of our modern military salute. And this even seems to be confirmed by the representation at the 'Gemma Tiberiana', so we have 5 examples now of soldiers saluting to higher rankers. 
 
Perhaps the adlocutio-like salute carried out with straight arm is the equivalent used by higher officers (or emperors) to the ranks. 
 
It is only my opinion and I can't prove it by any literal sources. 
 
Greets - Uwe

***Praefectusclassis*** · 01-03-2005, 12:16 PM

Here's Mikkalus 
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/Content/Imagebase/ImgDbLg/Lg_TFlaviusMikkalus.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Greets 
 
JasperEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jasperoorthuys>Jasper Oorthuys</A> at: 1/3/05 1:17 pm

mcbishop · 01-03-2005, 01:23 PM

Unfortunately, many of these still look to me like 'soldier fiddles with helmet', with the exception of the Byzantine piece which certainly seems plausible as two soldiers saluting a third... but if it is 10th-century Armenians in a Byzantine context then the link to any of the other sundry (and bizarre) postures is, at best, tenuous and culturally at several removes from the Roman imperial army. 
 
That Germanicus gem has a rather worrying second hand creeping round the back of his helmet in a distinctly pythonesque sort of fashion and the figure in question appears to be pushing his own helmet on from behind, rather than saluting. This also looks like an engraving of a gem and I would prefer to see the original rather than the 'interpretation' offered by the artist; many 18th- or early 19th-century illustrators misunderstood (or even enhanced) what they were seeing in classical depictions. 
 
Mike Bishop

FlaviusCrispus · 01-03-2005, 04:50 PM

"Unfortunately, many of these still look to me like 'soldier fiddles with helmet'..." 
 
Thanks, Mike for your thoughts. However, I can't fully agree with you (and believe me, I'm not comfortable disagreeing with M.C. Bishop!). In every case, it would be "soldier fiddling with helmet while hailing, greeting or apparently receiving orders from a higher officer." I just don't think a sculptor or engraver would choose to portray a soldier "fiddling with his helmet" in those circumstances. 
 
Particularly in the case of the Ahenobarbus relief, you've got a definite exchange going on between the togate official and the soldier, the official saying, "you there, go do such and such," and the soldier replying, "yes, praetor!" At least that's the way it looks to me. 
 
The Mikkalus relief in particular looks like a definite "hailing" gesture to me, which is another way of saying "saluting." 
 
On the Gemma Tiberiana, the "hand creeping around" behind Germanicus' neck belongs to (depending on whom you believe), his wife Agrippina, who stands facing him while his children stand behind him (the little guy in armor would be Caligula, then!), or perhaps the goddess Roma or some other allegorical figure. 
 
I would like to see a close-up of the actual gem, as opposed to a drawing of it, just to settle what's going on with Germanicus' thumb-- is it going behind the helmet, as it appears here, implying that he is pushing the helmet forward, or just laying alongside the rest of his hand? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Leg VI VPF 
CA, USA

01-03-2005, 08:53 PM

I once bought a bag of pretzels, and the first one I pulled out was kind of like a swaztika. Wierd. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

01-03-2005, 10:49 PM

Hmmmm. Those images are fascinating. 
 
I ponder if it's a moment when the soldier is either about to grab the helmet, or placing it back on his head? 
 
But then, you'd have to undo the chinstraps.....They don't seem to be dangling here...And that can get really annoying to undo and redo straps every time a superior comes by. 
 
...so...Is it possible to be like the modern salute, which was originally a doffing-of-the-hat gesture, but nowadays without actually taking off the hat? (as best I know) 
 
hmmmm. Titus Vulpius Dominicus ~ Your Friendly Neighborhood Roman Dude. 
 
Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re (Soft in Manner, Strong in Deed) 
 
www.higgins.org 
www.higginssword.org

Gregg · 01-04-2005, 01:24 AM

Here is a higher-quality view of the Ahenobarbus relief: 
 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ZorchG/Relief1.jpg"/> 
 
 
Let's call these two soldier 1 and soldier 2. 
 
 
And, for comparison, the section of the relief featuring the other two, let's call them soldier 3 and soldier 4: 
 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ZorchG/Relief2.jpg"/> 
 
 
The suggestion that soldier 1 has his hand to his forehead because he is saluting the seated aristocrat doesn't quite work. The seated guy isn't gesturing towards the soldier, he actually has his hand on the shoulder of the man standing next to him. I suppose it's either some kind of physical examination (as has been suggested to explain the events taking place in the relief), or an intimate conversation. 
 
You can also see that soldier 1 isn't holding his scutum up because he is at attention, but rather because it is a "short" scutum. Soldier 2 is holding a longer scutum, which he is resting on the ground. Soldiers 3 and 4 are similarly equipped with two distinctive size of shield. Soldier 3 is holding his scutum off the ground, like soldier one, and soldier 4, with the longer scutum, also has his resting on the ground. One of the most interesting aspects of the Ahenobarbus relief to me is the depiction of two distinct shield types. The two "short" shields held by soldiers 1 and 3 are identical in length, as are the "long" shields held by soldiers 2 and 4. (If you measure the shields in a photo you will see what I mean.) 
 
Gregg

FlaviusCrispus · 01-04-2005, 01:57 AM

Thanks for posting these nice, sharp images, Gregg! Wherever did you find them? 
 
Again, I have to at least partially disagree with your interpretation of what's going on in the first section. It seems to me the seated magistrate is perhaps addressing both the togate official standing next to him and the soldier-- one hand may be resting on the official, but the other hand looks to me to be clearly gesturing toward the soldier. Also, the seated fellow's gaze seems to be directed at the soldier, not performing a "physical examination" of the togate figure. The soldier is definitely looking at the seated magistrate. I suppose he could be looking at the exchange between the two togate figures and scratching his forehead, as if to say, "what's going on with those two?" But I still see an exchange going on here. Also, I am still struck by how the gesture of the "saluting" figure, right hand to helmet, fingers curled, matches up with that of the corresponding figure on the Mikkalus relief. 
 
As to shield sizes, it looks to me as if this artist, although possessing a wonderful eye for little details and human interactions, is not too concerned with the relative sizes of his subjects, or in depicting "perspective." The guy standing behind the "saluting" soldier not only has a longer shield, he's just bigger altogether, maybe 10-20% larger than the guy in front of him, a complete violation of normal perspective. The shields, apart from varying in size, all seem pretty much identical otherwise. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus

Jeroen Pelgrom · 01-04-2005, 07:57 AM

Quote:<hr>Thanks for posting these nice, sharp images, Gregg! Wherever did you find them?<hr> 
 
you can find these pictures along other pictures of Roman stuff at [url=http://www.insecula.com/" target="top]www.insecula.com/[/url] ------------------------------------------------------- 
A great flame follows a little spark. 
Dante Alighieri,The Divine Comedy

rekirts · 01-04-2005, 04:20 PM

I've just read through all the posts on both salute threads and find it a fascinating discussion. I do wonder why several soldiers would be depicted adjusting their helmets. Makes it seem as though Roman helmets were particularly ill-fitting or uncomfortable. At the same time, none of the possible salutes looks quite the same as the others--which certainly makes a definitive conclusion impossible. 
 
As a fiction writer, if it became an issue, I would choose to conclude that there was a Roman salute, and that it was much like a modern British/American salute--for the sake of simplicity, mostly. If you think the problem is bad, wait until you hear the solution

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