The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[PMBardunias]

This can be a retaining barrier, but it can also be other people in a crowd. ...this is where we differ! Unlike an inanimate immovable object, people generally can and do move, and psychology/fear prevents the deliberate 'crushing' of the front of one crowd against another...in this instance I would venture to suggest that the leading ranks of Hoplites would push back against their own side rather than be propelled forward onto the spearpoints of their opponents!

Ok, if that's your view. No need to proceed further for nothing even close to othismos can occur if men don't come closer than spear-range. I on the other hand believe the ample evidence, from Tyrtaeous on through the medieval age, that shows that men will go shield to shield reguardless of pointed sticks.

....but it is clear that the wall/barrier plays a key role in every case, for without it the conditions necessary simply don't occur - as you say, people free to move do!

Again, you posit the most timid hoplites one could imagine. Now they are too skittish to even move forward en mass without being herded through chutes like sheep off to the shear!

I agree with you that something of this sort probably occurred at Cannae, and other battles too - there are rare instances described of the crowd being 'dense' enough that the dead can't fall. This is not however a regular occurrence, deliberately brought about, as you envisage. It occurs accidently, and rarely enough to be commented on, not something deliberately done.

It surely is deliberately done. It is one of the great benefits of surrounding a foe that they begin to foul one another.

.....once again, your examples involve 'crowds' in constrained circumstances, and I am not aware of crowds confronting one another on a street generating sufficient force to cause Mass Casualties. Could you be more specific?

The converging example I was thinking of happened in Mexico City in 1985, but such examples are not important. If you do not credit hoplites in phalanx with the ability to collide with their opposite phalanx then we really have no more to write about. If they cannot come to grips with their foes but instead must stand at spear range then of course no othismos can occur.

You agree, I think, that initially the two phalanxes would be divided by a short ( the length of the spears! ) 'no man's land', and that spear fencing and thrusting took place (doratissimos) Just how does that convert to your 'othismos' of two 'shield walls' shoving? Mutual consent?

Spears break, men infiltrate between them. Since I cannot stab with a spear with any particular accuracy I would risk ducking it and jamming my sword into the spearman's gullet. There are many reasons that the battle might move less than spear range. It is obvious that it did- unless you think the Spartans and Thebans at Coronea were waving their little swords at each other from 5' away and got their shield's crushed by their own promachoi pushing backwards. :roll: (I have always wanted to use the eye roll)

How is this 'shoving' co-ordinated along a line a thousand yards long?

Its not. There is no need to coordinate pushing beyond the unit level. Waves of pushing surely travelled down the length of the line like the "wave" at a stadium. The outcome was not coordinated either clearly since almost invariably the phalanxes pinw-heeled as their respective right wings pushed forward.

Isn't it more likely that, assuming both sides were willing to fight, they "charged", spontaneously stopped at spear-fighting distance and fought in groups alternately attacking and withdrawing to catch their breath, so that the 'battle-front' seethed and writhed until one sides 'will to fight' wavered, through casualties and/or morale? ( We see similar fighting in modern riots, sometimes lasting hours, just like ancient battles).

This is exactly what happened before othismos, though battles could be wone simply through this phase.

I am not saying that no physical 'shoving' ever took place, just that it was more likely to be spontaneous and localised to small groups or individuals seeking to 'break' the line rather than some mass co-ordinated shove by thousands of men acting as a thousand yard long human bulldozer. I believe your idea would fall down on that point alone ! The pressure could not possibly be even all along the front.

I have failed someplace if you believe that pressure should be even along the whole front. In fact, were this the case you would simply push the whole enemy phalanx back and not casue a breakthrough! It is of course impossible to coordinate such movements along an extended front, but also needless. At the fundamental level coordination is only needed from the back to the front of a file. Because shields are interlocked and you'd like to penetrate at more than a width of one man pushing was probably coordinated within units- tens of yards, not thousands. It is the relatively narrow width of the Theban advance at Leuktra which caused Xenophon to describe it as an embolon or ship's ram.

Asking if there is an example of two groups of people in an open field who crashed into each other like lethal crowds is a bit like asking for an example of pedestrians bumping into each other on the street and breaking out into a full-blown Sumo pushing match. They surely could do it, but why would they? Put the same two guys trying to push through a narrow door in a burning building and you will see lots of pushing.

...have you not just handily demonstrated that some sort of physical constraint is needed to produce what you envisage?

I was unaware that Sumo wrestlers required a doorway in their circle in order to collide. :wink: The point is that they can decide to collide, but this is not commonly done outside of an agonistic context. Warfare has been known to cause men to act uncivilly.

A Hoplite battle on an open battlefield has no such constraints. Any attempt by part of the formation to 'squeeze' others would simply result in equal and opposite resistance. Without a 'wall' or similar there is nothing to push against. No huge forces, just a crowd packed like sardines trying to shuffle forward and impale their front line officers on their opponents spears, and you can bet that in such a situation the front couple of ranks would be 'pushing' alright - back against those behind them !!!

"equal and opposite resistance" is the key!!! One "crowd packed like sardines trying to shuffle forward" is matched by their equal and opposite, another " crowd packed like sardines trying to shuffle forward, moving in the other direction!"

Surely you have demolished your own case ! If the front ranks aren't being propelled forward by the mass force of those behind and can't be knocked forward, then there is no pressure on them, just as in the car analogy you describe there is no pressure on the cars in front. But perhaps what you really mean is that each rank begins 'shoving' gradually, until all are, and disengage similarly, so that the build-up or die-down of your postulated shove is gradual. If so, as I suggested, the front ranks, being all too human will resist and push back !

This is not that difficult. You and I are hoplites on a battle field. My spear breaks so I decided to move in shield to shield and luckily evade your dory thrust. We are now shield to shield and trying to push each other back while stabbing. You start to push me back until Giannis puts his aspis against my back, then Michael sees you stopped and starting to give way, so he pushes you from behind as well. You are distracted by something he is saying about Alexander's deployment, and so do not notice Christan coming up in support of Giannis until you start moving back a step at a time. Luckily for you, George backs up Michael and we push at each other ineffectively. Other men file in and the rear rankers on each side push hard, making them men as tight as possible. Luckily for both of us we are not killing eachother since our swords are crossed, but sardines before battle? Really Now! Our second rankers are doing their jobs by protecting us and stabbing forward when they get a chance. Multiply this by the number of files.

We are all packed tight and pushing, but at no time is the force unbalanced for long. If it were, one side would be driven back. We are close enough that we can only advance by single steps and you or I cannot fall backwards if we wanted to. Were we Romans with Scutii, we could not sustain this for very long. The pressure on us is surely over 1,000 Newtons of force by now and we could not expand our diaphragms to breathe. You and I would pass out and our own rear ranks would loosen up so that they don't as well. But we are Greek Hoplites and we carry perhaps the finest piece of evolved military engineering in the ancient world, perhaps surpassed only by the composite bow, on our arms. We can breathe. If my men break, then the pressure reduces with each man who turns to flee. By the time Giannis and Christian can turn to go, the only force on your file is from me pushing. Since you are surely pushing me back at this point your advance spoils your packing and the pressure on you drops as well. By the time I run, there is almost no force on your back.