03-18-2009, 05:39 AM
Paralus wrote:
Translated Text courtesy of 'Lacus Curtius'
19 Very similar are his statements about Alexander. He says that when he crossed to Asia he had forty thousand foot and four thousand five hundred horse, 2 and that when he was on the point of invading Cilicia he was joined by a further force of five thousand foot and eight hundred horse. 3 Suppose we deduct from this total three thousand foot and three hundred horse, a liberal allowance for those absent on special service, there still remain p357forty-two thousand foot and five thousand horse. 4 Assuming these numbers, he tells us that when Alexander heard the news of Darius's arrival in Cilicia he was a hundred stades away and had already traversed the pass. 5 In consequence he turned and marched back through the pass with the phalanx in front, followed by the cavalry, and last of all the baggage-train. 6 Immediately on issuing into the open country he re-formed his order, passing to all the word of command to form into phalanx, making it at first thirty-two deep, changing this subsequently to sixteen deep, and finally as he approached the enemy to eight deep. 7 These statements are even more absurd than his former ones. For with the proper intervals for marching order a stade, when the men are sixteen deep, will hold sixteen hundred, each man being at a distance of •six feet from the next.
Quite correct and consistent with the manuals, a stade being aprox. 200yds/600 ft, so that 1600 men are on a front of 100 X 16 deep, at 6 foot intervals, which is open order. Polybius has here chosen to refer to the 16 depth, because, as the manuals tell us, this was the standard depth of a Macedonian Phalanx.
Note here that Polybius takes it as read that the stated depth applies to ‘open ’order, with each man on a six foot front…
8 It is evident, then, that ten stades will hold sixteen thousand men and twenty stades twice as many.
…so he is saying that 32,000 men drawn up the usual 16 deep, in open order, occupy a front 20 stades/4000 yds…
9 From all this it is quite plain that when Alexander made his army sixteen deep the line necessarily extended for twenty stades, and this left all the cavalry and ten thousand of the infantry over.
i.e. only 32,000 of the 42,000 infantry make a line 20 stades/4,000 yards long…
20 After this he says that Alexander led on his army in an extended line, being then at a distance of about forty stades from the enemy. 2 It is difficult to conceive anything more absurd than this. Where, especially in Cilicia, could one find an extent of ground where a phalanx with its long spears could advance for forty stades in a line twenty stades long? 3 The obstacles indeed to such a formation and such a movement are so many that it would be difficult to enumerate them all, a single one mentioned by Callisthenes himself being sufficient to convince us of its impossibility. 4 For he tells us that the torrents descending the mountains have formed so many clefts in the plain that most of the Persians in their flight perished in such fissures. 5 But, it may be said, Alexander wished to be prepared for the appearance of the enemy. 6 And what can be less prepared than a phalanx advancing in line but broken and disunited? How much easier indeed it would have been to develop from proper marching-order into order of battle than to straighten out and prepare for action on thickly wooded and fissured ground a broken line with numerous gaps in it 7 It would, therefore, have been considerably better to form a proper double or quadruple phalanx, for which it was not impossible to find marching room and which it would have been quite easy to get into order of battle expeditiously enough, as he was enabled through his scouts to receive in good time warning of the approach of the enemy. 8 But, other things apart, Alexander did not even, according to Callisthenes, send his cavalry on in front when advancing in line over flat ground, but apparently placed them alongside the infantry.
21 But here is the greatest of all his mistakes. He tells us that Alexander, on approaching the enemy, made his line eight deep. 2 It is evident then that now the total length of the line must have been forty stades.
This is the important part. In ‘open’ order, a phalanx 8 deep would be twice as long, hence 40 stades/8,000 yards. Again, Polybius is taking it as read that any stated depth is of troops in open order…
3 And even if they closed up so that, as described by Homer, they actually jostled each other, still the front must have extended over twenty stades.
..he now goes on to say that even if they were in close order, ( 2 cubits/3 ft per man) they would occupy 20 stades/4,000 yards. The clear implication again being that depth normally refers to ‘open’ order
4 But he tells us that there was only a space of less than fourteen stades, and as half of the cavalry were on the left near the sea and half on the right, the room available for the infantry is still further reduced. Add to this that the whole line must have kept at a considerable distance from the mountains so as not to be exposed to attack by those of the enemy who held the foot-hills. 6 We know that he did as a fact draw up part of his force in a crescent formation to oppose this latter.
I omit to reckon here also the ten thousand infantry more than his purpose required. 7 So the consequence is that the length of the line must have been, according to Callisthenes himself, eleven stades at the most, and in this space thirty-two thousand men must have stood closely packed and thirty deep, whereas he tells us that in the battle they were eight deep. 8 Now for such mistakes we can admit no excuse. 9 For when the actual facts show a thing to be impossible we are instantly convinced that it is so. 10 Thus when a writer gives definitely, as in this case, the distance from man to man, the total area of the ground, and the number of men, he is perfectly inexcusable in making false statements.
From this, it is possible to see that what Polybius reports Callisthenes as saying is almost certainly correct, contrary to Polybius' ridicule. Alexander's Phalanx began it's deployment in the usual formation, namely 'normal'/'open' order, initially on a fairly narrow front of 'double' phalanx 32 deep. As they approach the Persians, they deploy into the usual 16 deep formation. Finally, "in the battle" they move into 'close order' formation 8 deep, for Polybius is surely correct that Callisthenes could not mean that they were 8 deep in 'open' order, for that would have involved doubling his total front to an unbelievable 8,000 yds - over 4.5 miles, which would have taken over half an hour to carry out, with the enemy close at hand. ( the eight deep was only carried out "on approaching the enemy", that is, with contact imminent).This is consistent with other Greek writers, and also resolves the apparent anomaly that Polybius describes Roman legionaries as being on a 6 foot frontage, while Vegetius, admittedly much later, says they fought on a 3 ft frontage - Polybius is describing 'open' order, - 'normal' or march/manouevre order, in Greek fashion, while 'Vegetius' is describing 'close' order, or battle formation.
Quote:Regardless of the complexities I'd love an inkling of your source material.Well to deal with Polybius XII.19-22, I'll set it out and add comments to show that it is evident that Polybius believes that when a depth is specified by a writer, in this case Callisthenes, it refers to troops in 'open' or 'normal' order. Accordingly, readers would know that the formation would 'close up' just before contact, and that the depth would automatically be halved....For our present purpose, we can ignore his criticisms since we are here concerned purely with the descriptions of troop formations.
Translated Text courtesy of 'Lacus Curtius'
19 Very similar are his statements about Alexander. He says that when he crossed to Asia he had forty thousand foot and four thousand five hundred horse, 2 and that when he was on the point of invading Cilicia he was joined by a further force of five thousand foot and eight hundred horse. 3 Suppose we deduct from this total three thousand foot and three hundred horse, a liberal allowance for those absent on special service, there still remain p357forty-two thousand foot and five thousand horse. 4 Assuming these numbers, he tells us that when Alexander heard the news of Darius's arrival in Cilicia he was a hundred stades away and had already traversed the pass. 5 In consequence he turned and marched back through the pass with the phalanx in front, followed by the cavalry, and last of all the baggage-train. 6 Immediately on issuing into the open country he re-formed his order, passing to all the word of command to form into phalanx, making it at first thirty-two deep, changing this subsequently to sixteen deep, and finally as he approached the enemy to eight deep. 7 These statements are even more absurd than his former ones. For with the proper intervals for marching order a stade, when the men are sixteen deep, will hold sixteen hundred, each man being at a distance of •six feet from the next.
Quite correct and consistent with the manuals, a stade being aprox. 200yds/600 ft, so that 1600 men are on a front of 100 X 16 deep, at 6 foot intervals, which is open order. Polybius has here chosen to refer to the 16 depth, because, as the manuals tell us, this was the standard depth of a Macedonian Phalanx.
Note here that Polybius takes it as read that the stated depth applies to ‘open ’order, with each man on a six foot front…
8 It is evident, then, that ten stades will hold sixteen thousand men and twenty stades twice as many.
…so he is saying that 32,000 men drawn up the usual 16 deep, in open order, occupy a front 20 stades/4000 yds…
9 From all this it is quite plain that when Alexander made his army sixteen deep the line necessarily extended for twenty stades, and this left all the cavalry and ten thousand of the infantry over.
i.e. only 32,000 of the 42,000 infantry make a line 20 stades/4,000 yards long…
20 After this he says that Alexander led on his army in an extended line, being then at a distance of about forty stades from the enemy. 2 It is difficult to conceive anything more absurd than this. Where, especially in Cilicia, could one find an extent of ground where a phalanx with its long spears could advance for forty stades in a line twenty stades long? 3 The obstacles indeed to such a formation and such a movement are so many that it would be difficult to enumerate them all, a single one mentioned by Callisthenes himself being sufficient to convince us of its impossibility. 4 For he tells us that the torrents descending the mountains have formed so many clefts in the plain that most of the Persians in their flight perished in such fissures. 5 But, it may be said, Alexander wished to be prepared for the appearance of the enemy. 6 And what can be less prepared than a phalanx advancing in line but broken and disunited? How much easier indeed it would have been to develop from proper marching-order into order of battle than to straighten out and prepare for action on thickly wooded and fissured ground a broken line with numerous gaps in it 7 It would, therefore, have been considerably better to form a proper double or quadruple phalanx, for which it was not impossible to find marching room and which it would have been quite easy to get into order of battle expeditiously enough, as he was enabled through his scouts to receive in good time warning of the approach of the enemy. 8 But, other things apart, Alexander did not even, according to Callisthenes, send his cavalry on in front when advancing in line over flat ground, but apparently placed them alongside the infantry.
21 But here is the greatest of all his mistakes. He tells us that Alexander, on approaching the enemy, made his line eight deep. 2 It is evident then that now the total length of the line must have been forty stades.
This is the important part. In ‘open’ order, a phalanx 8 deep would be twice as long, hence 40 stades/8,000 yards. Again, Polybius is taking it as read that any stated depth is of troops in open order…
3 And even if they closed up so that, as described by Homer, they actually jostled each other, still the front must have extended over twenty stades.
..he now goes on to say that even if they were in close order, ( 2 cubits/3 ft per man) they would occupy 20 stades/4,000 yards. The clear implication again being that depth normally refers to ‘open’ order
4 But he tells us that there was only a space of less than fourteen stades, and as half of the cavalry were on the left near the sea and half on the right, the room available for the infantry is still further reduced. Add to this that the whole line must have kept at a considerable distance from the mountains so as not to be exposed to attack by those of the enemy who held the foot-hills. 6 We know that he did as a fact draw up part of his force in a crescent formation to oppose this latter.
I omit to reckon here also the ten thousand infantry more than his purpose required. 7 So the consequence is that the length of the line must have been, according to Callisthenes himself, eleven stades at the most, and in this space thirty-two thousand men must have stood closely packed and thirty deep, whereas he tells us that in the battle they were eight deep. 8 Now for such mistakes we can admit no excuse. 9 For when the actual facts show a thing to be impossible we are instantly convinced that it is so. 10 Thus when a writer gives definitely, as in this case, the distance from man to man, the total area of the ground, and the number of men, he is perfectly inexcusable in making false statements.
From this, it is possible to see that what Polybius reports Callisthenes as saying is almost certainly correct, contrary to Polybius' ridicule. Alexander's Phalanx began it's deployment in the usual formation, namely 'normal'/'open' order, initially on a fairly narrow front of 'double' phalanx 32 deep. As they approach the Persians, they deploy into the usual 16 deep formation. Finally, "in the battle" they move into 'close order' formation 8 deep, for Polybius is surely correct that Callisthenes could not mean that they were 8 deep in 'open' order, for that would have involved doubling his total front to an unbelievable 8,000 yds - over 4.5 miles, which would have taken over half an hour to carry out, with the enemy close at hand. ( the eight deep was only carried out "on approaching the enemy", that is, with contact imminent).This is consistent with other Greek writers, and also resolves the apparent anomaly that Polybius describes Roman legionaries as being on a 6 foot frontage, while Vegetius, admittedly much later, says they fought on a 3 ft frontage - Polybius is describing 'open' order, - 'normal' or march/manouevre order, in Greek fashion, while 'Vegetius' is describing 'close' order, or battle formation.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
