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The disappearance of the ram at the end of antiquity
#16
Sean,

I'd be happy to carry on this discussion when you bring something to the table. So far all you've done is told us what you believe repeatedly. Just because you say its true doesn't make it so.

I could assert the world is flat, after all quite a few of pre-Socratic philosophers beleived it was. But just picking away at the points of view of others while repeating or paraphrasing your own doesn't improve the quality of the argument.

So, I'll wait patiently until you're willing to present something supporting the value judgement you're asserting. If you really believe it you should be willing to go to the trouble of actually backing it up.

Thanks,
Cole
Cole
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#17
Gentlemen, might I refer you to an article in "Ancient Warfare" magazine that discusses in detail the tactical 'pros' and 'cons' of the Ramming versus Boarding schools? It was written by me ( coughs modestly) and is concerned with tactics in the age of the Trireme....but is valid generally.

It is significant that Ramming was really only carried out by highly proficient navies, such as Athens and Rhodes......to successfully use such tactics required highly skilled crews/rowers, but Boarding can be successfully used by even unskilled crews.....

As to ramming being intended to cause galleys to turn turtle, I don't believe this for a milli-second ! Sure, it doubtless occurred on rare occasions, but the general purpose of Ramming was to either disable the oars, leaving the target ship helpless, or hole the target's hull, which would quickly become water-logged, achieving the same result. ( see AW article again). The defensive development to counter this was the addition of 'wales' on the waterline ( added on thickness) as a sort of armoured belt and to strengthen the hull generally. Such a measure would be pointless if the target usually, or even frquently, turned turtle......

To answer Stefan's original question, Ramming tactics had already disappeared in the Mediterranean by the later Greek/ Hellenistic/Roman period, partly because larger ships (Quinqueremes, then Quadriremes and even larger) designed to carry large numbers of Boarders/Marines, and protected by 'wales', made ramming less effective; but mainly as referred to above, the high degree of training ( hence cost) required to successfully utilise such tactics was rare when Cities/States tended to raise fleets on an 'as needed' basis, with certain exceptions such as Athens, Rhodes and perhaps Carthage......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#18
Well, I lied. I do have one more thing to add to the conversation. In order to dispel any uncertainty on the interpretation of the reporter, I posted Dr. Pulak directly with what I believe is a fairly unbiased question on the subject. His first comment dispels any doubt, when he writes:

"Frame first construction does represent an improvement over shell-first construction for a number of reasons."

I have included the rest in its entirety.

Thanks,
Cole

Dear Mr. Cioran,

Frame-first construction does represent an improvement over shell-first
construction for a number of reasons. But, the resulting hull is not
necessarily stronger or superior to one built shell-first. The Dutch
did indeed continue to build ships by this method (actually, a variety
called 'bottom-based' tradition) well into the 17th century. The
Duyfken you mention, as well as the better known Batavia were both built
in the typical Dutch tradition using planking held in place temporarily
with wooden cleats, which were then removed and the resulting holes
plugged up with wooden pegs. The Dutch were the last to use shell-first
building in northern Europe, whereas the English and the French had
already adapted the Mediterranean skeletal-first technique no later than
the early 16th century. I should add here that most modern vernacular
craft built around the world today still use full- or
partial-shell-first construction.

Skeletal construction has the advantage of not building asymmetrical
hulls (i.e, the port and starboard sides of the ship are identical),
which is nearly impossible to do in a plank-first ship. This is because
in skeletal building, the hull form is dictated and controlled in
vertical sections through the use of frames. In plank-first
construction, the shape of the hull is maintained through horizontal
control of the laid planking, which are somewhat dictated by the natural
runs of the planks themselves. More importantly, however, skeletal
building allows for the documentation of the hull and permits design
improvement that can be worked out directly on existing documentation
and then registered permanently. Thus, ship designs could then be
communicated on paper to others, which resulted in an accelerated
exchange of ideas and improvement of design. Shell-first building, on
the other hand, is not conducive for paper documentation, and the method
is generally passed on orally through a master-apprentice relationship.
Another advantage that became important in skeletal building is that now
the actual shapes of the ships framing were determined before the hull
was built--as opposed to the custom-made frames fitted in shell-built
hulls-- patterns for the frames could be taken directly to the forests
and the felled trees crudely shaped to the desired frames, which were
than transported to the shipyards. This saved significantly in
transportation costs of shipbuilding timber.

As regards strength of the hull, for earlier ships this would not have
been an important consideration. Either method could be employed to
build stronger or weaker hulls, depending on the level of craftsmanship
and materials. But, once artillery began to be used in ships, hulls had
to be reinforced with additional framing. Skeletal construction
provided an added advantage here, for the strength of the hull could be
maintained through an integrated framework, which, in turn was protected
by heavy planking. Non- or partially-integrated framing used in
shell-building would not have been as durable for this purpose.

In a nutshell, I suppose this would be the major difference between the
two methods. I hope I have been able to answer your question.

Thank you for the warning about the web-page address; I'll pass it on to
the web-master and hope that he can fix it soon.

Best wishes,

Cemal Pulak
Associate Professor of Anthropology
Nautical Archaeology Program
Department of Anthropology
Texas A&M University
College Station, Texas 77843-4352
tel: 9979) 845-6697
E-mail: [email protected]



Cioran, Nicholas wrote:
> Dr. Pulak,
>
> I just read the January article in Science News on the harbour finds
> in Israel, and have a question.
>
> It appears that the reporter is saying that the frame first
> construction methods represent an improvement in both technique and
> generate a superior hull. I'm wondering if this is an accurate
> representation, or do you believe that the frame first system
> represents a economical improvement at the cost of the quality of the
> hull? My apologies, as the word quality is a bit of a nebulous a term
> in this situation, as there are a number of factors that could be
> effected, such as seaworthiness, maneuverability, durability,
> longevity, as so forth. That being the case, do you feel that there
> were any trade offs between the two techniques?
>
> I'm curious because I am minded of Dutch ships of the early modern era
> like the Duyfken, which was built hull first, well after the
> transition to frame first in the Mediterranean was firmly ensconced.
>
> As a final note, your web page has your email as [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]> in the text, but the hot-link goes to
> [email protected] <mailtoConfused[email protected]>.
>
> Thanks,
> Nicholas (Cole) Cioran
Cole
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#19
Right. Although he does note that the resulting hull wasn't necessarily better, which was our main point of disagreement.

I checked Dr. Pryor's book The Age of the Dromon (the one Eleatic Guest quoted above). Either it (pp. 145-147, 152) or an article by J. Richard Steffy (“The Ram and Bow Timbers: A Structural Interpretation” in L. Casson and J. R. Steffy. eds. The Athlit Ram (INA Monograph Series No. 3, Texas A&M University Press, College Station, 1991) seems to be the source of the theory that medieval frame-first hulls could resist rams better than classical shell-first hulls, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of hard evidence that the difference was significant. Steffy and Pryor know a lot about wooden ships, but I'm not convinced. I may try to borrow The Althit Ram.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#20
Sean wrote:
>Right. Although he does note that the resulting hull wasn't necessarily better, which was >our main point of disagreement.

From my point of view, the interesting point is that the resulting hull isn't neccessarily worse... My key concern was your assertion that the shell-first method produced a superior product, which is clearly not neccessarily the case.

Thanks,
Cole
Cole
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