11-04-2009, 03:40 PM
Oh I have nice large image of the plate and I don't see how the pattern could be interpreted as leather- it's cross-hatching with a dot in the centre of each 'diamond'- I don't know what to interpret that as, but leather wouldn't have been my first thought. If anything it makes me think of quilting- but we don't want to open this to the whole quilted armour debate :wink: Are there other depictions of this pattern where the material is definitely leather? Given the exceptional detail of the image, it's surely reasonable to believe all those details are at least nearly accurate- but that makes it tougher since much of the 'could be' is taken out... of course that being said, what the heck is the black checkerboard pattern on the pteryges at the bottom og Akhilleus' armour? And the scale pattern on his helmet is problematic since obviously they're not actual scales, but look like the actual scales on his corslet...
Scales below leather with scales (or fabric with scales) clearly isn't a problem if one looks at the vase painting Connolly shows (Greece and Rome at War, p. 58)- the warrior second from the left has scales on the whole chest of his armour- and the same is true of the one on p. 52 (warrior in the centre). The depicted- whatever- on Patrokos' armour aren't scales though clearly. There's an edge binding just as there is around all the scaled sections, although that doesn't suggest or preclude anything really.
Sure, the sternum does a good job of protecting the centre of the chest, as does the closer packing of the ribs- that could explain the presence of 'extra' armour at the midsection of many Greek corselets, such as the additional scales at the abdomen which is a whole lot more vulnerable. Perhaps the use or not is an economic one- bronze wasn't cheap (still isn't LOL), so maybe some men only added it to areas clearly in need and didn't bother with the chest since the cost outweighed the benefit, while others who had more money went the whole way.
And Juraj, if by 'feeble' you mean you doubt the armour's protective value, I would point out that it's important to remember that armour is actually one's last line of defense; mobility is first- moving out of the way of a blow is the best protection, then is one's shield, then is parrying with one's own weapon and very last is body armour. These defenses must also be balanced- the Greek shield was very large and probably not exactly light, so adding a lot of body armour wasn't as necessary or desirable. Note how the only rigid defenses are for the main exposed areas- the head and the shins. Plus, I don't think you can really get any heavier leather than 4.5-5.5mm thickness from a cowhide, and that's about the heaviest there is; in truth, that might even be heavier than reality as one thing I've learned, ancient stuff is more often smaller and lighter than might be thought...
Scales below leather with scales (or fabric with scales) clearly isn't a problem if one looks at the vase painting Connolly shows (Greece and Rome at War, p. 58)- the warrior second from the left has scales on the whole chest of his armour- and the same is true of the one on p. 52 (warrior in the centre). The depicted- whatever- on Patrokos' armour aren't scales though clearly. There's an edge binding just as there is around all the scaled sections, although that doesn't suggest or preclude anything really.
Sure, the sternum does a good job of protecting the centre of the chest, as does the closer packing of the ribs- that could explain the presence of 'extra' armour at the midsection of many Greek corselets, such as the additional scales at the abdomen which is a whole lot more vulnerable. Perhaps the use or not is an economic one- bronze wasn't cheap (still isn't LOL), so maybe some men only added it to areas clearly in need and didn't bother with the chest since the cost outweighed the benefit, while others who had more money went the whole way.
And Juraj, if by 'feeble' you mean you doubt the armour's protective value, I would point out that it's important to remember that armour is actually one's last line of defense; mobility is first- moving out of the way of a blow is the best protection, then is one's shield, then is parrying with one's own weapon and very last is body armour. These defenses must also be balanced- the Greek shield was very large and probably not exactly light, so adding a lot of body armour wasn't as necessary or desirable. Note how the only rigid defenses are for the main exposed areas- the head and the shins. Plus, I don't think you can really get any heavier leather than 4.5-5.5mm thickness from a cowhide, and that's about the heaviest there is; in truth, that might even be heavier than reality as one thing I've learned, ancient stuff is more often smaller and lighter than might be thought...
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