Scale Thorax Research

[Kineas]

Matt, if you get a chance to see the Petrokles cup close up, you'll see that the top of the chest is pretty obviously tooled leather--which, if you'll stick with me, makes a certain sense. Most of the chest is covered by the shoulder pieces coming over the shoulder--and if the top of the chest were scaled as well, there'd be some very odd rubbing of leather on scale--as well as a thickness issue. And finally--it's virtually impossible to kill a man with a blow to the top of the chest--after all, that's where all the ribs are--and even if a lucky blow gets between the shoulder tabs, it still lands on three layers of leather--as much as the average all-leather thorax has anywhere!

All in all, I'm reasonably satisfied that this is the way it was meant to be built. I do now susupect that I should have made the shoulder pieces longer--I may add to them.

[Lýsandros]

Congratulations on your thorax! Have you been able to test it? It looks very good, but it seems the leather you are using is not thick enough. I cant help seeing the armor as too feeble, just from the looks of it. It might be just a visual problem though

[Kineas]

12-14 oz Veg TAN?

Well, i guess that it will show signs of strain in about 100 years...

Seriously, as all of it is doubled or lined, harness-sewn, and most of the ends riveted, I'd be surprised if it wore out. i've now had it on for a total of about 20 hours, and I've fought in it ten times or so.

[Matt Lukes]

Oh I have nice large image of the plate and I don't see how the pattern could be interpreted as leather- it's cross-hatching with a dot in the centre of each 'diamond'- I don't know what to interpret that as, but leather wouldn't have been my first thought. If anything it makes me think of quilting- but we don't want to open this to the whole quilted armour debate :wink: Are there other depictions of this pattern where the material is definitely leather? Given the exceptional detail of the image, it's surely reasonable to believe all those details are at least nearly accurate- but that makes it tougher since much of the 'could be' is taken out... of course that being said, what the heck is the black checkerboard pattern on the pteryges at the bottom og Akhilleus' armour? And the scale pattern on his helmet is problematic since obviously they're not actual scales, but look like the actual scales on his corslet...

Scales below leather with scales (or fabric with scales) clearly isn't a problem if one looks at the vase painting Connolly shows (Greece and Rome at War, p. 58)- the warrior second from the left has scales on the whole chest of his armour- and the same is true of the one on p. 52 (warrior in the centre). The depicted- whatever- on Patrokos' armour aren't scales though clearly. There's an edge binding just as there is around all the scaled sections, although that doesn't suggest or preclude anything really.

Sure, the sternum does a good job of protecting the centre of the chest, as does the closer packing of the ribs- that could explain the presence of 'extra' armour at the midsection of many Greek corselets, such as the additional scales at the abdomen which is a whole lot more vulnerable. Perhaps the use or not is an economic one- bronze wasn't cheap (still isn't LOL), so maybe some men only added it to areas clearly in need and didn't bother with the chest since the cost outweighed the benefit, while others who had more money went the whole way.

And Juraj, if by 'feeble' you mean you doubt the armour's protective value, I would point out that it's important to remember that armour is actually one's last line of defense; mobility is first- moving out of the way of a blow is the best protection, then is one's shield, then is parrying with one's own weapon and very last is body armour. These defenses must also be balanced- the Greek shield was very large and probably not exactly light, so adding a lot of body armour wasn't as necessary or desirable. Note how the only rigid defenses are for the main exposed areas- the head and the shins. Plus, I don't think you can really get any heavier leather than 4.5-5.5mm thickness from a cowhide, and that's about the heaviest there is; in truth, that might even be heavier than reality as one thing I've learned, ancient stuff is more often smaller and lighter than might be thought...

[Magnus]

Awesome work Christian. BTW, has anyone ever said you look like Daniel-Day Lewis circa "The Last of the Mohicans"?

[Kineas]

LOL a lot.

I'll hope that's a compliment, Magnus... Perhaps I'm a really OLD DDL.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Christian's thorax is one of the best out there. Both because of the work in the design and his crafting skills.
Speaking about design,i think he has cought the shape of some parts better than anyone,but in some other parts i disagree.
For instance,we had a disagreement on the construction of the pteryges from the patter,before he had actually cut the leather. I would have a completely different aproach,even for the impression of the "belly", but it was all a matter of opinion.
Leather or linen this all belongs in another thread(s) but Christian's matterials are by far the best in the leather side. I am very tempted to use this tawed leather for a thorax myself. Actually my designs and measures and even the cartboard patters are all ready years now! Even 100 of my scales,because i was planning on an all scaled cuirass for much time. If this project ever starts i will do a different design than Christian's, but this is mostly because i'm sure there were different designs back then. For example, i won't make a tappered tube (though Christian's has a very successful one).

Patroclus' thorax could be showing even metal scales or quilting. In my opinion the lines are too close to be showing quilting,but this is not a very strong point. If i reconstructed this,i would prefer bronze romboid scales,just because i like the look of it.
In reality,you can't reach an arguement according to what area needs more protection. If you take a hundret of different thorakes from vases,you will find scaling in a hundret different places. And mind you,some of them don't even show an upper chest piece!(i.e. the famous arming scene)

Christian,you deserve laudes for this,if only i find how you add them!!!
Khaire
Giannis

EDIT: Ahh,i found out that i can't give you laudes (karma) because i myself don't have enough. Oh well,it seems i'm an ostacized citizen who has lost his civil rights... :roll:

[Kineas]

Hah!

I find it odd that so many people who's opinions i find the best (like you, Giannis) don't seem to have so many Laudes--didn't you used to have a zillion? At any rate, I suspect it's a hard system to administer. Put your helmet up and I'll bet you get a bunch!

Anyway, it's the thought that counts!

As to the leather/scales argument--I realize that I'm guilty of a reenactor-ism! That is to say, when I see patterned leather in the top of the chest, it's because that's the EXACT pattern you see on many 18th century and late 17th century scabbards and even on hunting pouches--diamonds with a dot in the center. So that's my expectation--but 2000 years out of date.

Perhaps it is another fabric--I guess I've made my choice. And in retrospect, I think that I regret mixing Patrokles and Achilles from the Achilles vase--not really good reconstruction style, to mix two originals. And my rush to use taed leather on the chest--when I myself see patterned leather?

Sigh.

[Matt Lukes]

Just to be clear- I wasnt' criticising your work or choices Christian, just analyzing them I'm always curious to know what reasoning people have- as often enough there's some gem of previously unknown information there- for interpreting things the way they have. I wouldn't consider it a reenactorism as that's usually a flaw that's perpetuated by people simply copying each other rather than looking at original objects or sources. Your interpretation of the painting is your interpretation- not necessarily any better or any worse than another- since there's no clear indication just what the cross-hatching is.

[Paullus Scipio]

Christian wrote:

Perhaps it is another fabric--I guess I've made my choice. And in retrospect, I think that I regret mixing Patrokles and Achilles from the Achilles vase--not really good reconstruction style, to mix two originals. And my rush to use tawed leather on the chest--when I myself see patterned leather?

....I wouldn't worry too much about it, Christian. There is that much variation in corselets/spolades re-inforced with scales, not to mention that the artist may have 'made them up' being mythical characters, without basing them on an actual example, that we can say that what you have created is 'typical' of the type......

As to 'diamond pattern with dot', I tend to see quilting, influenced no doubt by quilted asiatic garments which look like this.... D

[John Conyard]

I often consider that the upper chester area of such armour seems relatively week. Even the Vergina iron armour seems to be cut low at the front. The upper sternum seems to be the place for display.

Christian's armour looks very good and I would love to try out some weapons on it.

I am still signed up to laminated hardened leather tube and yoke armours, tanned using alum or ash to whiten the surface. I can find bucket loads of references to hardened tanned leather armour. None for tawed leather. I see it as a bit of a white herring.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Great work, Christian. It inspires me to take another stab at scales.

[Paullus Scipio]

Hi John!

I am still signed up to laminated hardened leather tube and yoke armours, tanned using alum or ash to whiten the surface. I can find bucket loads of references to hardened tanned leather armour. None for tawed leather. I see it as a bit of a white herring.

...bucketloads of evidence pertinent to Graeco/Roman times? Could you extrapolate please, and give some ( at least! ) examples. I'm not sure I understand your objection to tawed leather? Is it the character of the material itself that has you doubting its use ? And could you clarify what you are suggesting? A tawed layer for the surface, backed by one or more hardened vegetable tanned layers? Or are you suggesting that tanned leather was then taken and "tawed" in a second process ? ....and please forgive me for pursuing this 'white herring'.... :lol: :lol:

[John Conyard]

I have no wish to be drawn publicly into the leather armour debate. Life is too short. But here goes.

As a caveat let me say I know very little about leather technology, so I’m willing to be educated. But in my earlier post I was careful to state there is lots of evidence for hardened leather armour. I didn’t mention the Graeco/Roman period! A lawyer put that phrase into my mouth. First, let me define my terms.

Alum-tanned leather is mineral tanned or tawed. Alum is mixed with salts and a variety of binders and protein sources, such as flour and egg yolk. Alum-tanned leather is technically "tawed" and not tanned, as the resulting material will rot in water. Very light shades of leather are possible using this process. The Hellenistic and Roman periods alum tawing would have been about the only form of mineral tannage available. Due to its poor resistance to water when not combined with other tannages such as oil, this leather would probably have been used more for indoors applications in temperate climes. Alum tawed leather is a poor choice for military applications (except perhaps in very dry climates) as the alum tends to be poorly fixed and is easily washed out if the leather becomes wet. Oiling the leather would help stop this. The Romans called tawed leather aluta. It seems to have been used occasionally for sails in later periods. And I read on the internet that the Greeks used it for shoe uppers, probably made from tawed goatskin. However no reference is given. An interesting discussion about tawed leather production and conservation is available here. http://cool.conservation-us.org/iada/ta99_067.pdf

Vegetable-tanned leather is tanned using tannin and other ingredients found in vegetable matter, tree bark, and other such sources. It is supple and brown in colour, with the exact shade depending on the mix of chemicals and the colour of the skin. It is more common through history than tawed leather. It can be coloured by dying, painting and waxing. Alum can be used to whiten the leather. It is the only form of leather suitable for use in leather carving or stamping, and therefore the only form of leather possibly used in decorating certain panels on tube and yoke armours. It can be soaked and then dried in a mould generally made of wood to make hardened leather armour. When waterproofed using molten wax we would call this cuir boulli. Such leather could be laminated using its natural gelatines, or by various dairy based glues. Earlier in this thread somebody cited the maximum thickness leather available as around 5.5mm. But you could laminate three 3mm thickness’ of hardened leather to get 9mm thick hardened piece of laminated leather. Not as good as quilting, but getting there. Such a process would produce a stiff armour, perhaps resulting in an upstanding yoke if used to make a tube and yoke cuirass. And the way we sometimes see the tube wrapped around the body more than once mirrors the laminating process.

Turning to history, from the Roman period we have hardened leather lamellar from Dura. This is basically leather, perhaps wetted, and then hardened by heat. This technology lasts through to the medieval period. J W Waterer (Leather and the Warrior, Museum of Leathercraft, 1981) looks at European leather technology. He suggests that untanned rawhide was seldom used for protection in the medieval period. Instead he sites various examples of tanned leather, soaked (samming) and then rapidly dried in a mould.

From China, a technological innovator, we have hardened leather lamellar, lacquered leather, moulded leather armour, shaped and hardened leather plates. We see such technology from before the Han Chinese through to Tibetan armours made relatively recently. Please excuse me if I explain that the Han period roughly conforms to the late Roman Republican period.

Arabic armours mirror the use of hardened leather, perhaps laminating it using its natural gelatines as in India. This is my favoured option for the tube and yoke cuirass. Early 12th century European recipes describe the use of cheese and warm water to make casein glue. Arabs would steep the leather in milk to make laminated armour or leather shields.

The only possible reference to alum tawed leather I can think is the lamt shield of the Berbers. This almost mythical shield seems to have been made using laminated hide tanned with milk and eggs. The milk and eggs reference seems close to the proteins that need to be added to the tawed leather to make it supple. But it could be more dairy-based glue. David Nicolle (Companion to Medieval Arms and Armour, Boydell Press, 2002) does suggest that this type of shield, was made using untanned leather (rawhide?) in Somalia until modern times. Nicolle also gives two 12th century Fatimid recipes for making armour, one using laminated camel skins glued using milk and soda, the second possibly using shavings of rawhide mixed with other ingredients and moulded.

So considering several thousand years of history, my limited knowledge comes up with many and varied references to hardened vegetable tanned leather, sometimes laminated. It can be decorated and stamped. I’m aware of one questionable reference to shavings of rawhide being used to make moulded armour, and one relatively modern African shield perhaps with a long tradition, using possibly laminated rawhide. There is a mythical possible use of tawed leather to make a shield. There is the famous crocodile costume, called armour by some. And Nearchos via Arrian mentions Indians carrying light shields of raw oxhide, perhaps another form of leather armour. I hope others can add to this summary.

So “in my opinion” hardened vegetable tanned leather, possibly laminated and whitened using alum to match written evidence and iconography, is well attested. Tawed leather armour isn’t. In fact, I suspect much modern tawed leather is in fact vegetable tanned leather whitened using alum. Rather than asking me to prove the use of hardened tanned leather, perhaps you could prove the use of tawed leather as armour?

Now I’m off to enjoy a selection of Islay single malts, and to consider if Ireland ever produced a whisky as good - A nice safe objective debate with lots of hard, or at least liquid, evidence to consider.

[Paullus Scipio]

Wow! Thanks for answering my questions in such detail, John. D Great post and worthy of the Laus you've just received.

But in my earlier post I was careful to state there is lots of evidence for hardened leather armour. I didn’t mention the Graeco/Roman period! A lawyer put that phrase into my mouth

No you didn't specifcally....but I was not "putting words in your mouth" rather, asking the question " ...was any of your bucketloads of evidence pertinent to the Graeco-Roman period?"....and the answer is "Yes!", for we have surviving leather armour from Dura Europos, 3 C AD, in the form of lamellar cuishes - but H.Russell Robinson described these as 'rawhide' (????). However there are the two tooled and studded leather chamfrons for a horse from Newstead,c. 100 AD ( and the fact that bronze eye-pieces often survive alone suggests they came from similar chamfrons)

Rather than asking me to prove the use of hardened tanned leather, perhaps you could prove the use of tawed leather as armour?

To quote someone else here, "I have no dog in this fight", and I didn't ask you to "prove" anything ( we all know that without good solid evidence you can't prove anything (oops! lawyer-speak ! :wink: )
I was simply curious as to what had led you to your conclusions/views. Here's a piece of evidence that may support your view....the famous Ariston stele with the colour restored.......

Now I’m off to enjoy a selection of Islay single malts, and to consider if Ireland ever produced a whisky as good - A nice safe objective debate with lots of hard, or at least liquid, evidence to consider.

...much depends on personal taste of course, but there are technical reasons for considering Irish superior......a subject I'll gladly debate with you in person over some sample glasses one day... :wink: :wink: D lol: